January 20, 2012

Offit Teaches Physicians How to Talk To The Public About Vaccines: Contemptuously Lecture, Stonewall, Bully and Throw Them Out

Reading Jake Crosby's piece today on being thrown out of yet another Paul Offit speech, I am struck by the ironic pattern in these speaking engagements.  

Paul Offit (and Seth Mnookin) have been holding events at prestigious institutions to tell medical professionals and academics how to handle the public on the vaccine controversy.  Yet I think that it is completely lost on them that they are not just giving a speech on how to handle people who question the current vaccine program, they are actually holding a lab, will full scale demonstrations, on how to handle people who question the current vaccine program.

Because people don't really pay as much attention to what you say as they do to what you do.  (Ask any parent trying to teach a child NOT to do something that they do themselves.  "Don't smoke kids.  Now pass mommy her cigarettes.")  And what Offit and Mnookin have done, is offer a bunch of words that will likely have little impact, but then actually demonstrate how to treat doubters of their message, which has a huge impact.


So here is the take away that event goers are getting when attending an Offit/Mnookin event:

1.  Offit gives a lecture at NIH entitled “Communicating Vaccine Safety Science to the Public,” says a bunch of words, then demonstrates how to communicate "vaccine safety science" to someone who is a steakholder in the issue (Jake Crosby, who may be vaccine injured) by falsely accusing him of being a stalker, by not letting him ask a question (although he is behaving completely appropriately) and by throwing him off the premises. 

Take away:  To communicate with the public, talk AT them.  If they have questions that you don't want to answer, make them your adversary and have them removed from the property.


It is OK, and even preferable, to demonize vaccine safety skeptics, and treat them very poorly. 


Bully them.



2.  Offit gives a lecture at Yale entitled “Hard Knocks: Communicating Science to the Public,” says a bunch of words, then demonstrates how to communicate "science" to someone who is a steakholder in the issue (Jake Crosby, who may be vaccine injured) by falsely accusing him of being a stalker, by yelling at him, by not letting him ask a question (although he is behaving completely appropriately) and by throwing him off the premises.

Take away:  To communicate with the public, talk AT them.  If they have questions that you don't want to answer, make them your adversary and have them removed from the property.  Offit has also inferring that the "Hard Knocks" do not refer to the medical professional being "knocked" when trying to talk to communicate to the public, but actually to the vaccine safety skeptic who was actually "knocked" trying to communicate with the medical professional.  "When engaging the public, it is OK to give them 'hard knocks'."

It is OK, and even preferable, to demonize vaccine safety skeptics, and treat them very poorly. 

Bully them.


3.  Mnookin gives a lecture at  American University's School of Communication entitled  "How to Communicate with Anti-Vaccine Parents," says a bunch of words, then demonstrates how to communicate "science" to someone who wants to make their own vaccine decisions, by telling the audience that you are offended and repulsed by such parents, and that you think they are "Total Assholes."




Take away:  To communicate with the public, hold them in contempt.  Even when they are parents earnestly working in the best interests of their vulnerable children.

It is OK, and even preferable, to demonize vaccine skeptics, even as you admit that vaccines may not even work for their child.

Bully them.


4.  Mnookin appears at the  Public Responsibility in Medicine and Research” event,  says a bunch of words, then demonstrates public responsibility in vaccine discussion by falsely accusing a stakeholder in the issue (Jake Crosby, who may be vaccine injured) of being disruptive at events, by not letting him ask a question (although he is behaving completely appropriately) and by throwing him off the premises .

Take away:  It is responsible, when dealing with vaccine safety skeptics, to talk AT them while only allowing them to sit quietly and listen.  If they have questions that you don't want to answer, make them your adversary and have them removed from the property.

It is OK, and even preferable, to demonize vaccine safety skeptics, and treat them very poorly.

Bully them.


Do you see the pattern here?

Mnookin and Offit ARE teaching the medical world how to treat those who have questions about vaccine safety.  They are to be treated very poorly.  They are to be held in contempt and bullied.  They are to be removed from the premises.

But of course the problem for medical professionals in taking this advice, is that when they try it in their offices, they loose the argument, the loose the patient, and they loose their reputation in the community.  Taking Offit's advice is akin to shooting oneself in the foot for anyone whose job actually requires them to have a conversation with a member of the public.

And the Offiteers have lost at least A QUARTER of the public to the conclusion that vaccinating according to CDC recommendations is a greater risk to their child than adhering to their recommendations.

So I will echo Mary Holland's most salient question to Paul Offit in this last exchange:
"Would you be willing to engage in a public debate about the vaccine issue?”
And we see that the answer is, and always will be, the one that Offit gives:
“There is no need to debate the science; the science is in.”
Their answer is "No."  


So as Offit (who has become the Bagdad Bob of vaccination) and friends lock the doors to the ivory tower from the inside, to protect themselves from vicious graduate students in epidemiology at that hotbed of anti-science anarchy, George Washington University; but what they don't seem to have noticed is that all they have done is locked themselves in a broom closet, away from the real vaccine discussion that matters.  Their tiny mutual admiration society is having little impact in the direction of vaccine uptake rates, because they are not engaging with the vaccine decision makers.  You know... their customers.  The discussions that are changing vaccine uptake are happening at coffee tables, at bus stops and over back fences.  

I have them on a weekly basis, I don't accuse people who question me of being disruptive or being stalkers, I don't treat them with contempt, i don't call them "Total Assholes," I don't shout them down when they try to ask questions, I don't throw them off the premises and I DO engage them for as long as they want to talk about the issue.

I can show a mother that the claim that "The science is in and vaccines don't cause autism" (and apparently now encephalopathy) is a complete load of horse shit in 2 minutes on my cell phone from our health officials own words documents and web sites.  Not only is Offit not there to defend his stupid claim, local pediatricians are completely ill equipped to win back moms who have been educated at the coffee table, because the only thing they have been taught to do with these moms are:


1. Hold them in contempt.

2. Talk AT them.

3. Don't allow them to ask questions.

4. If they challenge your stance, throw them out.

And then of course, the next time they are at coffee, it's all, "OMG... you were totally right.  They don't know anything about vaccine injury!  He couldn't answer the questions and just tried to bully me!  What is the name of your pediatrician who is cool with your vaccine choices?"

So by all means, keep it up you two... keep it up.  Nothing proves my points more to all the women I talk to than the way you behave.

44 comments:

Carrie Elsass said...

spLove. It. We are winning hearts and minds over the back fence, a few at a time, because we are in the right. The tsunami is coming, and the Offits and Mnookins are so cloistered in their mutual admiration society(love it!), that they don't even see it coming. Is it ok that I sometimes grin and clap my hands in glee because I DO see it slowly rising?;)

Paullus99 said...

Just a question - why is it that Jake Crosby has to follow Paul Offit from location to location & ask the same questions over and over again, even as they've been answered, over and over again?

Josh Day said...

"Paulus99"

Just a question - why is it that ND faux skeptic morons have to troll blogs they don't agree with & spout the same moronic blather over and over again, especially as they're so condescending and annoying, over and over again?

The science is in. Case closed. That question has been asked and answered!

Ad hominem attack! Strawman strawman strawman!

Cue the Dalek ND trolls: EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

Paullus99 said...

@Josh - wow I could say the exact same thing about the anti-vaccine crowd, since rather than approach a subject with real science or, oh well, actual evidence, instead it is the same old "pharma-shill" conspiracy stuff over and over again.

Seriously though, how is what Jake doing not "stalking?" I could see him claiming he lives in DC - so the jump to NIH isn't that big a deal, but going all the way up to Yale to ask the same question over and over again?

Paullus99 said...

1. Hold them in contempt.

When I attempted to ask questions at AoA - I was attacked personally.

2. Talk AT them.

AoA doesn't allow honest discussion of science.

3. Don't allow them to ask questions.

Posts that question anti-vaccine science are routinely deleted at AoA.

4. If they challenge your stance, throw them out.

I've been banned from AoA & many others as well, no doing nothing more than attempting to either ask questions or post evidence that is contrary to AoA's stance against all vaccines.

So, tell me who the hypocrites are here?

Zed said...

Paullus99, I'm pretty sure AofA will be willing to hear your plea. The only people who get kicked out are those who refuse to take the discussion Forward. If you can manage to address the points that are raised, rather than deflect, obfuscate and insinuate, they'll probably let your comments through.

Minority said...

This conversation seems to be getting deflected. I think that Offit and Mnookin do indeed bully, lecture and stonewall.

Has anyone been successful in asking either of them a substantive question about vaccine injury, for example?

Paullus99 said...

Dr. Offit has been vilified, smeared, and made a scapegoat by the anti-vaccination crowd. They've outright lied about his financials, his research, and continue to harass him with questions that have already been answered over and over again.

For Seth Mnookin - somehow his past, which included drug abuse (and recovery) is used against him, but when the same charge is leveled at Robert Kennedy Jr. (who is also an addict), all is forgiven because he is anti-vaccine.

It is real shame that all of this money and energy is wasted attacking these individuals, instead of being put towards autism research.

I wonder why AoA isn't putting their money where their mouth is & start sponsoring actual research, instead of attacking anyone and everyone that doesn't share their "opinion" about vaccines.

Ginger Taylor said...

Paullus,

Please understand were I am coming from on this... I don't care what you think.

People from you camp, and you specifically, don't seem to understand that it is PAILFULLY obvious that you could not give a tinkers damn about vaccine injury or children receiving brain damage from vaccines. You are not a good faith player in this discussion.

You are not a "skeptic." You are a cynic and a contrarian.

It is HILARIOUS to me that you are showing pity for Offit and Mnookin. They are frankly, completely pathetic as they hide behind made up excuses like "disruption" and "stalking" to not answer questions. When the could just ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION and not make drama scenes on this.

They lie constantly, do monumentally unethical and illogical things and the fact that you defend them makes you a joke in my eyes.

I was absolutely open to discussions with your camp for the first 6 years after my son regressed, but I got so sick of the lies, obfuscation and immaturity, I waved goodbye to banging my head against the wall with your lot.

Listen carefully...
I AM THE MOTHER. I AM THE CUSTOMER. I AM THE ONE WHO DECIDES WHETHER A VACCINE IS WORTH TAKING OR NOT.

The idea these jerks have that they get to dictate how I should live my life, how Jake should live his life, and then REFUSE to answers legit questions or debate anyone on it?

SERIOUSLY!!!

Who died and left Offit the King of Medicine?

The guy is a HUGE phony, and Mnookin is not anyone that someone should be taking health advice from.

Them... and you... and your play group, are not to be taken seriously any more. You dont' give a shit about my child. You don't give a fuck about children with autism. You just have a fun little circle jerk where you pat yourselves on the back and commend one another on how "sciency and shit" you are.

I don't care what you think any more.

If you would like more on why I gave up talking with people like you about this, please spend the time to read this: http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2009/09/chris-mooney-sheril-kirshenbaum-lori.html

You are a bad faith player.

If by any chance you want to have an actual grown up conversation about how to deal with the real world problems going on, then let me know. But I am done playing in the sand box with children who don't even put their own names on their posts.

Paullus99 said...

And people wonder why a rational discussion is impossible in this situation....I think your response says it all.

Paullus99 said...

Actually, to address you specifically, good friends of mine have worked with autistic children for over a decade now & the get very upset with all of the attention being paid to the false vaccine-austism link & the lack of attention being paid to the children themselves - not enough resources, not enough care, not enough services, etc.

All of the time, energy, and money being wasted by organizations like AoA, instead of lobbying to support more autism support programs, so those on the spectrum
(since autism isn't a single syndrome) can lead as normal lives as possible - and it has been shown that with earlier interventions, the overall outcomes are so much better.

Go ahead and blame vaccines all you want - but it isn't doing your son a bit of good now, is it? All of that hate is going to burn you up inside and will transfer to the self-loathing that you must obviously feel about your son.

Zed said...

Hmm....wonder why AofA kicked you off. (You really don't expect Ginger to respond to this, right?) Certainly doesn't move the discussion 'forward'.

MySocratesNote said...

Paullus,
Here's a question for you. Isn't it perfectly within Jake's right to travel to nearby public forums and question health officials? Especially when, on previous occasions, he asked a legitimate question during the Q&A period and, instead of being answered, was kicked out of the convention.

So, since Jake has now been kicked out of both Mnookin's and Offit's public forums, and if you were to follow Dorkski's arbitrary rules for Crankery and Quackery (tm), then both Mnookin and Offit are quacks. Because, according to Dorkski, only quacks and cranks remove someone from a forum or convention for just asking questions.

Here's another question for you, since you implied the stalking. How is it that the Oraccolytes can moan and whine ad nauseum for days and days on end when a young college student travels to (fairly) close locations to question a journalist and public health official and they consider that stalking, but when one of their buddies endlessly follows someone they don't like from forum to forum, starts posting information about where that person lives and works in a public forum, starts giving that individual strange and threatening messages and phone calls, and then pulls up posts from the individual's spouse that are almost 10 years old and buried on a forum on a defunct site, all after he has been asked publicly to leave the individual alone is not considered stalking?

There is an awful lot of hypocrisy coming from the Oraccolytes, and it's downright disgusting.

hoonew said...

Phallus99, go crawl under a rock. We are unimpressed.

Ginger Taylor said...

I am going to use simple words so you can get what I am saying to you "Paullus"

I

DON'T

CARE

WHAT

YOU

THINK.

We clear now?

Minority said...

I don't think Paullus99 is winning anyone over, do you?

Perhaps you should reconsider your approach Paullus and actually address the problem of vaccine distrust.

cadbunny said...

"Actually, to address you specifically, good friends of mine have worked with autistic children for over a decade now & the get very upset with all of the attention being paid to the false vaccine-austism link & the lack of attention being paid to the children themselves - not enough resources, not enough care, not enough services, etc.

All of the time, energy, and money being wasted by organizations like AoA, instead of lobbying to support more autism support programs, so those on the spectrum
(since autism isn't a single syndrome) can lead as normal lives as possible - and it has been shown that with earlier interventions, the overall outcomes are so much better."

1. Good friends who work with kids with autism are not parents and families who live with autism 24/7. Why are they mentioned in this, as if this conversation is about their upset feelings? Please. What about the upset of the families that are being ignored and left to languish on the wait list for services. Oh, and the whole redefinition of autism that is being pushed to cut out what little services are offered or covered by insurance. Your friends have a JOB, while the actual people who need services are the ones that this truly makes a difference for. As long as the mainstream continues to turn the other way and not really look at possible causes and chooses instead to investigate some far off genetic link that they can chalk up to the parents biology, this is a relevant discussion that needs to be front and center instead of denied. When its environmental, then suddenly some of the responsibility shifts to those who do not want it.

2. All the time and money wasted by organizations like AoA? Are you really saying this as though they have an endless supply of financial and media support? What about Autism Speaks, there is one that does yet is not doing much of anything to help families directly with support services as the money goes to paying for their large overhead and funding yet more genetic research that has come up with not much to help anyone. They cut research grants before downgrading their Madison avenue offices and cutting salaries of their extensive staff. AoA is one of the few voices that does speak for me with far less money.Where is Autism Speaks lobbying for support services with all that walk money that families raise??

You are right about one thing - what about the lack of attention paid to the children themselves. It is impossible to draw attention to helping families directly when people are vilified on a daily basis in the media over a question the government and the mainstream medical establishment refuse to discuss or consider. Because it is NOT about the kids, it is about accountability, money and covering their ASS.

I love your response Ginger. The Canary Party rocks!

;@)

Jen said...

HMMM

Dr. Wakefield has been vilified, smeared, and made a scapegoat by the pro-vaccination crowd. They've outright lied about his financials, his research, and continue to misrepresent his results over and over again.

SOUNDS AWFULLY FAMILIAR!!!

Jake said...

I appreciate the support people have shown me here, but would like to clarify one detail that wasn't brought up in my article. Some of the comments here suggested that I traveled all the way to Connecticut from DC to see Offit talk at Yale. That's not true.

I had already been in Connecticut - in a neighboring county - on a month-long break visiting family.

Ginger Taylor said...

Interesting, certainly shoots Paullus down, but ultimately irrelevant.

I am in Maine. If I wanted to fly down to Florida and challenge Paul Offit on the lies he tells, that public health swallows and retells, and on which people advocate public policy should be based... it is absolutely fair game.

Offit is a liar who does not want to be challenged, so he makes up reasons not to answer questions, and his followers make up new ones when he makes himself look like a fraud by charging people with things that are not true.

Zed said...

And let's not forget that Offit admits he's never "treated a child with autism."

Ginger Taylor said...

And now that I think about it...

Offit can act as if real professional boundaries don't exist (serve on the ACIP, make vaccines for Merck, work a full time job protecting CHOP's vaccine patents, serve as a spokesman for the AAP, write a book about autism treatment when he has never treated autism and has no patients at all, all while claiming that he is an independent scientist with no conflicts of interest to declare...

But you are out of bounds if you drive over a state or county line to challenge that bullshit?

Brilliant.

This is why they are losing this war and why vaccine uptake continues to drop. They act like clowns while displaying the height of puffed up bravado.

And they are not going to stop, because they have painted themselves into a corner, and coming out and saying, "Well yeah... we might have been a bit strident here and yes there are problems with the vaccine program," is just not something they can do any more.

So we continue to win with no worldly influence and no money. Because they continue to show the world they are full of shit.

Foresam said...

Hey Ginger, You treated me with contempt, shouted me down and threw me off the premises when I told the truth about mercury in vaccines. Do you understand that the term "mercury in vaccines" is not the same as the term "vaccines"?
I think you know the difference. Part of your disingenuous assault on me involved the fact that I also told the truth about your psychopathic pals from Neurodiversity. You used the same tactics you complain about which shows us you don't have the brains to debate with me. Of course, we all know that the real reason you can't debate with me is because I tell the truth and you don't. So, no matter how brilliant you are from attending Johns Hopkins, you have to try to battle the truth with lies. That's an impossible task and you know it. So, let's see if you delete this and "throw me off the premises" or if you're foolish enough to try to challenge me. Good luck.

Zed said...

Foresam, please enlighten us by giving us just ONE specific lie that Ginger has told anyone. Remember, a lie is an untruth. Simply disagreeing with someone doesn't make their statement untrue. And intelligent people can hold diametrically opposed ideas.

Foresam said...

Zed, How nice for a no name personna to try to challenge me. Why are you afraid to use your real name?
Ginger claims she is on the side of parents whose children had their brains mangled by mercury in vaccines. Yet, Ginger steadfastly refuses to support any effort to educate the public towards ending this crime against our children. She pretends to support that effort by using character assassination against a couple of jackasses who are obviously on the side of Pharma but when I put a picture of my car on her Canary Party Facebook page, Ginger deleted the picture and banned me from the page. That's significant beecause my car has the words "FLU SHOTS CAUSE AUTISM" painted on the side of it.
Here's how the scam works so Ginger can try to claim she has some "other" reason to delete that picture of my car. A Neurodiversity agent, personna, or what have you was embedded in the Canary Party Facebook page who played the role of starting an argument with me to demonize me. Ginger pretends that this agent is a real person and falsely accuses me of being mean to the poor personna and bans me from the page for allegedly picking on a poor person with alleged Asperger's Syndrome who many of know is just a Neurodiversity scum who opposes curing autism and writes garbage all over the internet claiming how much she loves being "autistic" and that autism is genetic. Said personna sometimes plays with sane people and alludes to the possibility that she might consider trying to cure herself to lend some credibility to the illusion that she is a genuine "autistic" person. (This simply is not true and Ginger knows it...or she should know it. We assume that people with Master's degrees from Johns Hopkins can see through such obvious nonsense as this personna spouts.)
Anyhow, wheen Ginger deleted that picture of my car, she told me, and all of you, that she was opposed to helping educate the public to the truth about mercury in vaccines. Any person who was genuinely interested in educating the public would have seen what a great advertising scheme it was on my part to counter Pharma propaganda by painting my car with those words and they would encourage other people who have old junk cars to do the same thing. You see, if thousands of us with old cars were driving around with the words "FLU SHOTS CAUSE AUTISM" painted on our cars, that might cause the public to "wake up" and see that there is real problems with vaccines. It might prevent some pregnant women from shooting mercury into their fetuses and mangling their brains beyond repair or killing said fetuses via spontaneous abortions. If Ginger actually gave a damn about supporting an effort to prevent those injuries to those fetuses, she would never, under any circumstances delete that picture of my car. She would throw the troll personna out of the Canary Party Facebook page and she would thank me fpor coming up with such a great idea to support "our" cause.
Do you now see the LIE?

Foresam said...

Here's another lie that Ginger engages in along with the rest of the leadership of the Canary Party.

I just left the following comment on the page of a politician named Carol Shea-Porter: "Hi Carol, I see you decided to ignore my question about mercury in vaccines. I also don't see any answer to the email I sent you with the same question. Is there a reason you choose to ignore this crime against our children that is being covered up by almost all members of both parties? While you engage in this phoney debaate between Dems and Reps about money, our childrens' brains are being mangled into mush by our thoroughly corrupt vaccine industry. Are our childrens' brains as important as money to you? They are a lot more important than money to me. I vote."

The lie from Ginger and the Canary Party is that they purport to do something politically towards the goal of ending this crime against our children. Yet, they NEVER urge anyone to take similar actions as I did to provoke our corrupt politicians to do the right thing. If they were truly on the side of our injured kids, they would urge like-minded parents to gang up on these corrupt politicians and force this issue down their throats by attacking them anyplace they find them in a public venue and forcing them to publicize this crime and take a stance on it. Neither Ginger nor the Canary party EVER do this. To pretend that they represent your interests while they refuse to EVER take ANY action towards forcing the issue is a LIE. They do NOT represent your interests.

Zed said...

Foresam (is that your real name?), are you serious? Have you read Ginger's accounting of her interaction with state legislators? Have you read about the plans of the Canary Party? Have you read her blog postings about her rabid desire for the vaccine insanity to Stop? You're upset, it's clear to see. But about what? That she found your actions at counter-purposes to those of us who want intelligent dialogue and sanity to rule the day?
And, btw, the reason I don't use my full name is none of your frickin' business. It has far more to do with shielding those around me than protecting myself. It's also a way to keep detractors from using my identity (and its implications) to pursue ad homs. There are many venues where I do use my name, but I'm not willing to have the discussion distracted because of who I am. Just stick to what I say, thanks.

Foresam said...

Zed, spoken like a true agent and coward, congratulations!!! Agents always try disingenuous tactics like accusing me of being upset while I write the truth. The always have some bogus excuse for why they have to hide their name in the shadows, as if anyone is stupid enough to believe that. Adults simply state their name and it helps others see their opinions as genuine. My picture is there and my name is on my blog if you care to check. I don't have to hide because I tell the truth, all the time.

The plans of the Canary Party, LOL. That's a good one! All they've done in eight months is plan. If they had any brains, and were genuine, they would have begun to ACT. I know all of these people and they've had about 13 years to do their "planning". They might be fooling you with that nonsense but I know that their plan is simply to waste everyones' time by diddling around with planning. I knew how to ACT a long time ago and I did so. My planning process only took minutes, not years. These alleged intelligent and highly educated leaders don't need 13 years to plan a course of action when it only takes me minutes. I'm not THAT much smarter than they are. But, I am a lot smarter than the parents who blindly follow these alleged leaders.

"Intelligent dialogue and sanity"? Get real! Sanity doesn't tell you to do absolutely nothing to inform the public to sway public opinion while all you ever do is preach to the choir and moan and groan amongst yourselves. Sanity tells you to wage war on the corrupt politicians any way you can. Is that attitude not "politically correct", Zed? Is planning to attack the liars who allow this crime against our children to continue unabated not an "intelligent dialogue"? Is actually doing the attacking not an "intelligent" action? Would it be more "intelligent" to sit around yacking with a bunch of planners for 13 years instead of actually taking some action?

Ginger's "rabid desire" to stop this crime is null and void if the only people who read it are other parents. Why doesn't she go "rabid" on the politicians, shame them publicly and try to beat them in elections? Is that not an "intelligent" question?

You have no guts, Zed.

Ginger Taylor said...

Foresam,

I will be happy to address your concerns tomorrow, but I don't have time to give a proper response today.

For now, I will refer you to both the private emails I sent you in regard to this matter, and the other comments of yours that I have responded to in this blog in the past several months detailing that your accusations are unfounded.

And as always, I have not deleted your comments from this site on any occasion.

Zed said...

Ginger, as always, I look forward to your post.

Foresam said...

Your alleged rebuttal of my statement of facts is laughable, Ginger. While you refuse to urge parents of autistic children to promote their own cause by using car advertising to beat Pharma's brains in, as I showed you is possible, free and simple, you prove yourself to be a fraud. By refusing to repair your "error" in judgement of deleting the picture of my car from the Canary Party Facebook page, you prove that you are opposed to any of us taking real action to beat Pharma's brains in. The only way you come out of this with any semblance of possibly being a genuine and honest advocate for autistic children is to plaster that picture of my car all over your Canary Party Facebook page, admit that you made a tremendous error in judgement, advise everyone what a great idea it is and urge all of thewm to do the same thing. Otherwise, no matter what drivel you decide to spew as a defense of your reprehensible actions, the result is the same. You took sides AGAINST a father of a severely autistic child who is doing everything he possibly can to end this crime against babies. You threw me out of a group and took my voice away so you could prevent me from encouraging other parents to FIGHT. You used the lame excuse of a known Neurodiverse troll having it's feelings hurt to justify your dishonest and disingenuous actions. The only thing that's at issue here is that picture of my car and the good it would do if thousands of parents did the same thing. You can't rhetoric your way out of this.

Ginger Taylor said...

Foresam,

You were removed from the Canary Party facebook page for trolling and insulting other who were commenting. I respectfully request that you do not do that here.

Foresam said...

Ginger, I was not kicked out of the Canary Party page for trolling, or for insulting anyone. First of all, I wasn't trolling. I thought I was with a like-minded group of parents who want to see this crime against our children end. My car is one means toward that end. I also did try to spur parents to take some public action against corrupt politicians. Neither of those two actions can remotely be considered "trolling" by anyone who wants to defeat the drug companies. You making such a dishonest and disingenuous statement slurs my character and marks you as a person who ios hiding from the truth by whatever means are available.

Second, I can not possibly "insult" someone who baited me into an argument when that person is either a phoney personna or an agent of Neurodiversity. As all sane parents know, all people and personnas associated with Neurodiversity in any way, shape or form are agents of Pharma and the CIA. None of them are real people except for some victims who have been brainwashed by Neurodiversity to take positions against themselves. If this not common knowledge amongst sane parents, it should be. That's what Neurodiversity is.

To again try to suggest that I did something wrong by exposing the dishonesty of said Neurodiverse troll tells us that you are not being honest. You can not possibly be that stupid that you believe anything that was written by that Katy what'shername. She is a well known troll who spent years assigned to the Autism Speaks forum where I had many encounters with her. In every instance she touted the insanity of Neurodiverse philosophy. She is one of them, an enemy of all autistic children like the whole cult is. You know that.

I am not trolling here either. I'm calling you out. I'm exposing your dishonesty. As I told you when we had our email exchange, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that you had been suckered by the liars associated with Age of Autism to play a role in the Canary Party that would help their credibility. You never seemed to be corrupt. To continue this vein of insisting that I am some sort of troll instead of admitting that you made a serious error in judgement would confirm that you are indeed part of the evil. You should think about this if you're not evil. Feel free to call me if you are honest and ask me any questions you like about the deception being perpetrated by Neurodiversity, Age of Autism and now the Canary Party. I have all the answers. I know how their brand of deception is being played. Do you? (603)434-3928

Ginger Taylor said...

John,

Addressing some of your concerns again.

Repeating… You were removed from the Canary Party facebook page for your aggressiveness against those with disabilities and bad faith interactions with others. If you have information that someone is posing as disabled person, or is merely a “phony persona or agent” while working for our opponents, you are certainly welcome to send it, but that was not the case here. You were picking a fight with a disabled young woman.

Your behavior on every form I have seen you participate in is inappropriate. It is inappropriate to diagnose people as “psychopaths” both because you are not a mental health professional nor have you been commissioned to offer anyone a diagnosis. It is also cruel.

Your behavior toward the disabled is in conflict with The Canary Party Principle on Compassion:

“9. Compassion
The strength of human civilization is best measured by how well it treats its disabled citizens. This is especially true when the forces of technology and progress, and even mandated medical procedures, inflict injury on a segment of the population. We believe that civic virtue is founded on an ethic of responsibility and compassion for others. For injured citizens we therefore have a collective duty to support, care, assist, and provide resources that enable an acceptable quality of life. A benevolent society connects personal virtue with the collective consciousness and finds meaning through the wisdom of love.”

You make claims that you have no way of knowing are true or not. You write that, “The lie from Ginger and the Canary Party is that they purport to do something politically towards the goal of ending this crime against our children. Yet, they NEVER urge anyone to take similar actions as I did to provoke our corrupt politicians to do the right thing.”

As you are not a member of the Canary Party, not on any of our working groups, not on any of our mailing lists, have not attended any of our meetings, conference or calls, you have no idea what we have or have not encouraged people to do.

And yes we do call our members to action against corrupt officials and corrupt legislation. We do encourage them to show up in public venues when they can and confront the problems head on. We do not, however, encourage them to insult them, call them names as you do in your interactions with officials, or go “rabid” on them as you suggest we should.

cont...

Ginger Taylor said...

...


You have repeatedly, and for years, made false and bizarre accusations against people, including two of the three directors of the Canary Party.

You claim that neither David Kirby, Mark Blaxill nor myself will concede that mercury causes devastating brain damage to children (including autism) when all three of us are published authors on the subject. Kirby wrote the paradigm changing expose on the corruption in the vaccine program that was hiding mercury damage as a cause in the autism epidemic in his book “Evidence of Harm, Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy”, Blaxill wrote about the history of mercury damage from ancient Rome to present day in his book, “The Age of Autism: Mercury, Medicine and a Man Made Epidemic” (and is a board member of “Sensible Action for Ending Mercury-Induced Neurological Disorders”), and my chapter in Vaccine Epidemic on the corruption in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, CDC and HRSA included reference to 35 different research papers that pointed to mercury as a causal factor in autism causation, and I have blogged about its role in autism since 2005.

You attack the leaders in the fight against mercury of not fighting against mercury.

You claim that we won’t decry the use of mercury in medicine, even though we have been decrying the use of mercury in medicine for as long as we have been in the public eye. Here …. I will do it again:

“I, Ginger Taylor, believe that mercury has no place in medicine. It is a neurotoxin, and therefore can never be called a “medicine”. It is a poison and should be outlawed from medical use. I believe whole heartedly that Mom’s Against Mercury was spot on the nose when they wrote, “Giving Mercury to Children On Purpose is Stupid.”

John, I support you in your campaign to have mercury removed from all sources that can come into contact with any human being.

But that does not give you the right to be abusive to people. And you are constantly abusive to others in your speech. Your behavior is not acceptable on the Canary Party forums.

You are not being persecuted, I am not trying to suppress your opinions about mercury damage, I am being as direct as I know how to be here…. John you are excluded from the forum because you are very, very mean to people, and specifically the disabled who do not have the social skills to navigate the kind of harsh words and insults you throw at them. Your message is not a problem, it is your cruelty that is the problem.

Our value system is that the disabled should be treated respectfully, regardless of whether we agree with their opinions. Calling them “psychopaths” is absolutely not tolerated. It is wrong. Please do not do it on this blog again.

I have encouraged you privately to take a hard look at the name calling and the vitriol you hurl at others. I am now doing so publicly.

It is certainly your choice if you want to continue to treat people the way you have in the past, and the way you have on this blog, but I hope you consider how destructive it is, and re evaluate this approach to others.

I understand and accept that you do not like the Canary Party, me and many of my associates. And you are free to express those beliefs and opinions, as that is what the internet is for. It is unfortunate that you continue to make such outlandish claims, because some of them I don’t even know how to respond to, other than to say, sorry you don’t like the way we run the Canary Party or don’t feel that we are moving fast enough for your taste, feel free to not take part in it and start your own movement.

If you have other questions that you feel I have not answered adequately, please leave me others in bullet point form in response to this message, so I can be sure I have hit all the points you brought up.

Foresam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Foresam said...

OK Ginger, you're 100% wrong and I'm going to start with Kirby. Kirby did NOT write the "paradigm changing expose..". Courtney Zeitzke did that. His book was published firat and it was a much better account of what was really going on. I made a video about Kirby's corrupt book and how he sold us all out. You can search for "Foresam" on Youtube and you can find it. I actually made two videos but one of them is not currently public. Anyhow, Kirby sold us all out at the start of that book, in the Author's Note, when he used the same words used by people like David Gorski and told the world that he would never endorse the methods we were using to cure autism. He stated that autism could not be cured. That was early in 2005 when some children had already been cured with chelation, the method that Kirby denigrated when he should have known what was going on and should have been championing it.

Later, in speeches that he made, he made us all look like rank fools when he started babbling about mercury floating across the Pacific as the reason that autism rates had not decreased. At the time, he was well aware that autism rates in California had increased due to the fact that the flu shot had been added to the schedule for pregnant women 3 or 4 years earlier. He had been advised about this inane error on his part by Dr Paul King, did not answer Dr King's criticism and, as far as I know, still has not answered. I don't know that Kirby has ever acknowledged that flu shot to pregnant women for the hazard that it is, that it gives the fetus up to 200 times the alleged "safe" dose of mercury (and some say it's higher than that). And, then we have his constant blathering that "MAYBE" mercury causes autism long after we all knew that mercury DEFINITELY causes autism. That word "MAYBE" sold us all out, you, me your kid and my kid...and everyone elses' kids. Kirby continually called for more studies to prove a point that had been proven beyond all doubt in 1999, confirmed by Simpsonwood in 2000 and confirmed again by Mark Geier in 2003 when he should have stated it as fact. He led everyone who blindly followed this "hero" to waste a whole lot of precious time by having all sorts of people begging the government to do studies when they all should have just been demanding honesty. That's how Kirby hamstrung all of us. I told everyone this a long, long time ago but none of you listened. You should've.

Mark Blaxill's book (I haven't read it) apparently discusses all sorts of things as causative in autism which takes the focus off the primary thing that's causing it right now, thimerosal in flu shots to pregnant women. That deflects attention away from the primary hazard, the primary hazard that you refuse to support when you, again, will not comment on what a great idea my car is and will not advise your sheep in the Canary Party how doing the same thing would be extremely effective anti-propaganda against Pharma.

I'm published too, an article in the Manchester Union Leader in 2003about chelation, plus about 700 blog posts about autism and the incredible propaganda that pervades the issue.

Foresam said...

While we're on the subject of propaganda, let's look at psychopathic behavior, the thing you falsely believe I have to be a professional to diagnose. Everyone associated with Neurodiversity is a psychopath, either by design or by being part of a brainwashed cult of followers. The net result is that their words and actions harm autistic children intentionally. Of course, the brainwashed cult members can not be held accountable for their actions here but that's what their words are, psychopathic abuse of autistic children. None of these people are "autistic", not one. If you believe that any of them are, you should go read my Hating Autism blog. There are countless descriptions in there that prove my contention. Some of them might have Asperger's but that is not "autism" and calling themselves "autistic" is done for the sole reason of obfuscating the opinion of what autism in the minds of the general public. They do that because having Ari Ne'eman onstage as the face of autism shows the public that "autism" is no big deal. This, the public does not care, even a little bit, about the plight of kids like mine who can't speak, read write or use a toilet and will exist in an institution, heavily drugged for the rest of his life after I croak. He'll most likely be beaten or drugged to death and there won't be a damn thing I can do about it because I'll be dead. This is the goal of your pal Katy who you falsely claim I insulted. That's what Katy works towards. She tells everyone how much she loves her autism, just like Ari Ne'eman, even though she is not autistic. She's a nasty little game player. Take my word for it because I know her a lot better than you do. You claim she told you was trying to cure herself. I believe that because she told me the same thing once, even asked my advice and I gave it to her. Then, of course, she found some sneaky way to try to throw that advice in my face to paint me as a horrible person, the same way you're doing.

Foresam said...

You see, I know that these people are OUR enemy. They do not deserve decent treatment. They should not be treated with the slightest bit of respect. Every word they utter needs to be shoved right back down their lying little throats, the same as with our corrupt politicians. When you allow them to pawn their lies off as true, you help them beat us. That's what convinces me you're a part of that evil. I don't know about you but I was a member of that stupid AutAdvo group where I used to go and routinely break their balls while they were planning their assaults on us and our children. I had them all so rattled that they destroyed one of my computers remotely back in 2005. Age of Autism tried an identical attack on a different computer a couple of years ago but that one protected itself. Who do thinks can get their hands on software that can destroy a computer remotely like that? I'll leave that up to to figure out.

In short, I know just about everything there is to know about these agents who call themselves Neurodiversity. Did you know that Ari Ne'eman's mother used to be the translator for the Prime Minister of Israel? That's how he was able to meet with Tony Blair and our own Presidents and have himself appointed to speak for our children on some national disability councils. Do you like the idea of that bastard representing your kid on those councils? Do you think anything good is going to come from that? Your pal Katy is Ari Ne'eman's biggest supporter.

Foresam said...

BTW, I have convinced some Aspies who were brainwashed by Neurodiversity to leave the cult. I helped some of them learn how to remove the mercury from their brains towrds being cured. So, don't tell me I'm not compassionate. I recognized the whole truth about what's going on there and I wrote the truth to try to help the victims. Most of them are so far out of it that you can't reach them. They have been brainwashed by liars like Ari Ne'eman since they were old enough to navigate the internet.

All that said, this remains solely about that picture of my car. Not having on the Canary Party page shows you oppose defeating Pharma. Actions speak louder than words. I'm a writer. I don't use "bullets".

Foresam said...

Ginger, You won't deny it so it must be true...you support Pharma.

Ginger Taylor said...

John Best,

I have repeatedly requests that you cease commenting on this blog since you advocated for the execution, via bullet to the head, of those responsible for the autism epidemic, as that is out of bounds on this blog.

You have now failed to respect that request four times.

I am reiterating this request one last time.

Please do not post on this blog, as you have repeatedly been asked to cease attacks on those with disabilities and their mental status, and to cease posting inappropriate remarks, and you have decided not to comply.

I regret that our differences of opinion could not be resolved.

Foresam said...

LOL, Ginger. That's the weakest stab I've ever seen at somebody trying to puke up excuses for avoiding answering valid concerns. Every time you try this nonsense Ginger, you tell us that you are corrupt.

Why don't you try defending your hero, David Kirby? Is it because you know I'm right and you just don't want to admit I'm a thousand times smarter than you? Or, is it because you're corrupt?

Ginger Taylor said...

Mr. Best,

After six requests, you have still chosen to continue to violate my commenting policies, so your comments will be deleted from the site from now on.

However I did make you the offer that I would answer your questions if you would bullet point them for me, and that offer is still open.

I see that you would like me to comment further on the opener to David Kirby's book, and I will do that.

If you have any other questions, you have my email address. Feel free to email them to me and I will post and answer the good faith questions that you send. Abusive comments, insults, threats, ado advocation of violence, etc. will of course be edited out of your questions.

Again... there is a whole wide internet where you can post abusive or violent comments, so you are welcome to do that where that is allowed, but I am drawing the line on that here.