April 2, 2008

Jenny McCarthy and David Kirby on Larry King

Tonight was another hallmark in the national vaccine/autism debate.

Never before has there been REAL debate.

A pissed off autism mom, a smart investigative journalist asking the hard question, an experienced pediatrician frustrated with his own profession, all face to face with hard core denial doctors like Harvey Karp and my pal David Tayloe who does not believe that vaccine injury even exists, and does not know how to read vaccine safety package inserts.

I have never seen David Kirby, usually the mellow, middle ground man, calling for more study, and 'let's see where things go', be so passionate. "The Debate Is Over"!

The very mature and measured Jon Poling could only shake his head at the AAP doctors misinformation.

Jay Gordon was clearly working hard to hold back his annoyance with his own AAP's party line and their lack of ability to reason beyond "vaccines good... make public health good...", to the varying health needs of individual children.

I have to guess that the Kirton's were booked on the show to make the 'genetics' point, and I have to wonder if they were disappointed when John Kirton said the word, "vaccines".

And then there is Jenny... shouting "Bullshit"!

And then there is my husband and me, jumping up and down in our living room!!!!

NOW the main event has started!

I want 10 more shows like this, but with fewer guest and with Larry asking questions that progress the debate a little better. ("Why do you keep having children?" Seriously Larry?)

Let me say outright, I cannot imagine for the life of me why the AAP has chosen David Tayloe as their new chief. He is a PR nightmare for them! In the current climate, when every day more and more parents quit vaccinating all together, choosing a dinosaur like Tayloe who is stuck in the 1950's polio epidemic, and who does not seem to notice that the threats to children's health have dramatically changed in the last half century, is just plain stupid.

I am going to say something here... and it will be the most harsh thing I have ever said about anyone on this blog before, but it needs to be said.

Dr. Tayloe said that in his practice that has seen 100,000 patients that he has never referred one person to the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund. If he has never seen a serious vaccine injury, it is not because he has not come across one, it is because he has his head up his ass.

Tayloe is just dangerous.

This man has GOT to be removed from the position that he has been elected to before he takes office. I would take Karp in a second over this guy. Karp was wrong, but he wasn't crazy person saying insane things with a smile wrong.

Jay Gordon gives me hope that there are doctors out their who recognize that we have gone to far with vaccines and it is time to re-examine.

RISE UP WISE AND COMPETENT PEDIATRICIANS EVERYWHERE! RISE UP! Who do you want to take recommendations from, Jay Gordon, or David "The Dinosaur" Tayloe?

I know I am biased, way biased, but our guys won and the other guys just looked foolish.

Question of the evening goes to David Kirby who exposed the AAP docs for the close minded relics that they are:

David Kirby: "There is a bill in congress to study vaccinated v. unvaccinated populations in this country. Doctor would you support that legislation?"

David Tayloe: "Please allow me to talk around the answer by saying something politically correct but not going on record for supporting the legislation."

Jenny McCarthy: "Will you support the vaccinated v. unvaccinated study?"

David Tayloe: "We support lots of things, like flowers, and lemon drops and My Little Pony."

Yeah... they don't support that legislation.

The quote of the evening goes to David Tayloe who, when Jenny pointed to the chart of 36 vaccines and asked, "Do we really need ALL of these?", nodded his head and replied, and this is really great... listen to this:

"They're recommended!"

Well Doctor Tayloe... if 12 guys in Atlanta who tell mom's with good questions like, "Why don't you make a recommendation for pregnant women to receive only thimerosal free flu shots?", to sit down and stop asking questions in public vaccine policy meetings designed to let the public ask questions, then dammit... that is good enough for me! Bring on the vaccines!

36 Vaccines! It's Recommended!




(Check this space for more footage when I get around to it.)

[UPDATE: OMG! Turns out the Vaccine Injury Compensation Court exists in part due to the 3.5 million dollar malpractice suit that Dr. David Tayloe lost in 1985 when a child he gave the DPT shot to magically got permanent brain injury!! That Asshole just got on TV and implied that he had never SEEN a vaccine injury in his practice!!!

Here is what he said:

Tayloe: "I have yet to see a patient who I sent to the compensation program because I thought they had a permanent injury. Extremely rare."

He lost 3.5 million dollar lawsuit, apparently one of the biggest awards ever, the year before the vaccine court was created!

And then BRAGGS about not sending any other children to the injury program?!

And having a court force him for giving a shot to a kid who could not handle it was still not enough to teach him the lesson that not all vaccines are safe for every child, because he went on the Today show and said that ALL VACCINES ARE SAFE FOR EVERY CHILD!!!!

AAP you have lost your collective mind putting this man in charge!? Are you kidding me!!!! I think I am gonna have an aneurysm.

[More UPDATES: Gotten more information that this may have been Tayloe's father David Tayloe Sr. Which would make David Tayloe Jr. a little less evil, but sill evil. I am trying to confirm details but I am traveling today and only have like 10 more minutes of wifi.]

[YET MORE UPDATES: Thanks for your patience as I got reconnected after a day of travel. I got an email from someone Tayloe went to med school with that says this was his father. In thinking about where to adjust my judgmentalism meter, I think that I will retract my declaration that he is an asshole, and say that he is a dangerous, foolish man.

A jury told his own father that he was more than three million dollars worth of wrong for administering a shot that plunged a boy into brain damage, and he learned nothing from it, continuing to claim that 'all vaccines are safe for every child', and that there is no such thing as serious vaccine injury. (or maybe, but barely ever, as his statement last week was that there was not "any relationship between vaccines and permanent injury", and this week he has downgraded his stance to "extremely rare".) Even though it was not directly his, he should still know better because of his father's legacy.]

Info on David Tayloe's Malpractice Suit [HT: Kevin Barry]:


Medical Malpractice/Negligent Administration of the DPT Vaccine
$3,500,000 Jury Verdict, May 1, 1985



The Minor Plaintiff, Bernard Forehand, Jr., was seriously injured when the Defendant Pediatrician's Nurse failed to communicate to the Defendant Pediatrician, David Tayloe that the Minor Plaintiff had an adverse reaction to the first vaccination shot. The administration of the second shot left the Minor Plaintiff with a significant brain injury. The Defendant Pediatrician, David Tayloe, who at that time was the President of the National Pediatric Association, strenuously fought this case all the way to a jury verdict. On May 1, 1985, the jury handed down what was at that time the largest jury verdict in a medical malpractice case in the State of North Carolina, in the sum of 3.5 million dollars.

***********

Following is a newsletter article that I (Barbara Loe Fisher) wrote in the summer of 1985 on the Forehand lawsuit:

"In May, a North Carolina jury in the Wilmington U.S. District Court decided that David Tayloe, M.D. and T. Frank Stallings, M.D., of Washington Pediatrics, P.A., were guilty of medical malpractice in the pertussis vaccine-induced brain damage suffered by Beau Forehand, Jr. The child was awarded $3.5 million in compensatory damages by the jury but the judge overturned the verdict and it was appealed.

It was the highest medical malpractice award in North Carolina history. Beau was represented by attorneys Anne Werum Lambright and Richard Polling of the Charleston West Virginia firm of Preiser and Wilson. The defense claimed that the two doctors were following the vaccination guidelines contained in the American Academy of Pediatrics 1970's "Red Book" which was in effect at the time Beau Forehand received his first DPT shot in January of 1974.

Beau reacted to his first short with a 103 degree fever and inconsolable crying, which his mother reported to the doctors. Six weeks later, Beau had a febrile seizure and was hospitalized. However, despite the reaction to his first shot and the subsequent seizure, he was given another DPT shot even though he had a cold and a slight fever at the time of the second vaccination. Within three hours of his second DPT shot he went into a major seizure and has had an uncontrolled seizure disorder ever since. He was left with severe mental retardation.

The 1970 RedBook did not list inconsolable crying, a fever of 103 degrees, a history of convulsions or a cold at the time of vaccination as contraindications to the pertussis vaccine. Attorney Lambright stated that the jury's verdict in the case sent a clear message to physicians that "The American Academy of Pediatrics Red Book should not be used as the sole guide to contraindications or adverse reactions to vaccines. The basic premise in the Forehand case is that doctors have to use their common sense, medical training, skill, knowledge and experience to make appropriate determinations for vaccination on a case by case basis."

If the jury's verdict is upheld on appeal, the Forehand case will be an important precedent-setting case. It would mean that individual physicians are responsible for obtaining knowledge and making decisions about the advisability of vaccination in individual cases which go beyond automatic reliance on the recommendations listed by the AAP or the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP). Examples of additional information available to physicians are the vaccine manufacturer's product inserts included in vaccine packages. which historically have listed more contraindications than those listed by either the AAP or ACIP, and the more than 40 years of scientific literature on the subject."

In a Winter 1986 newsletter, I wrote:

"On September 18, 1986, Forehand V. Tayloe and Stallings was settled for $1.1 million in North Carolina. A North Carolina jury had concluded that two pediatricians were negligent in the pertussis vaccine induced brain damage of Beau Forehand, Jr. and had awarded the boy and his parents $3.3 million. The judge overturned the verdict and the case was appealed on behalf of Beau by the law firm of Preiser and Wilson, of Charleston, West Virginia, before the Sept. 18 settlement ended the lawsuit."

BRIEF VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION SYSTEM (VICP) BACKGROUND:

The Forehand settlement was one of a series of DPT vaccine malpractice cases against negligent physicians, as well as a few high profile punitive damage awards for DPT vaccine brain damage that went against vaccine manufacturers between 1981-1985 which persuaded Congress that both drug companies making vaccines and doctors giving vaccines should be protected from liability for vaccine injuries and deaths. The vaccine manufacturers threatened to leave the country with no vaccine if they did not get protection. Doctors threatened to stop giving vaccines if they weren't protected. Both doctors and the companies wanted a federal compensation system that banned all vaccine injury lawsuits for all time. We fought for protection of the right to access the civil justice system to sue companies or doctors if the child was turned down for federal compensation or offered too little or if it could be proved the vaccine manufacturer engaged in criminal fraud or gross negligence in the manufacture the vaccine or the doctor did the same in administering the vaccine.

I hope this is helpful.

Best,
Barbara Loe Fisher

40 comments:

Keo said...

Almost 26 years ago my son had his first vaccinations as an infant. Already having had two children, when he continued screaming for hours I called my pediatrician who told me that to watch him for fever, swelling and signs of a systemic reaction that might be life threatening during the night and to take him to the hospital if I saw any. He wanted to see him in his office first thing in the morning. A full 12 hours after his shots he finally slept out of pure exhaustion I am sure. When I took him to the pediatrician in the morning that wonderful man told me that my baby would have no more immunizations until he was over the age of five. He told me that Nick was having a severe reaction to something in one of the vaccines and that until his brain was fully developed we were not going to risk permanent damage. Autism was never mentioned but I believe that is what he felt was at risk. At age 11 months Nick exhibited signs of autism and had such a severe problem with speech and behaviors that he spent several months institutionalized at age 3. He had speech therapy for many years and is now grown and in the Army. At about age 2 he poked a metal coat hanger through the skin inside his cheek and at the ER they wanted to give him a tetanus shot. When I told them what his pediatrician had told me but agreed that the shot was a wise precaution they had me stay there with him for several hours to watch him for a reaction.

Now you tell me that there are not health care professionals to be found who do not tow the CDC's line?

Ginger said...

YAY Keo!

They are out there! I have met them! And their voices need to be heard!

Keo.. is this doctor still practicing?

I have mom's email me all the time looking for peds like this, who take vaccinating as seriously as they do any other medication (and he was doing it back in the day... impressive).

Post his name and city, or email it to me if he is still working.

And so sorry to hear that you went through so much, but so encouraging to hear he is in the ARMY now!

I hope all our kids make that kind of progress!

journeytocrunchville said...

Wow. That info about Dr. Tayloe needs to be aired on Larry King including his previous clip denying the fact. I really wish people would see these people for what they are...

Matt said...

Are you sure that the lawsuit involved Dr. Tayloe Jr (president elect of the AAP) and not Dr. David Tayloe Sr?

Given that Dr. Tayloe Jr was only 8years out of med school at the time, it seems unlikely that he would be president of a national organization.

Wade Rankin said...

Matt,

Let's say you're correct and it was Tayloe, Sr who was sued (I really don't know either way). Tayloe Jr would surely have been aware of the suit. Assuming arguendo that difference, his wording on the program (restricting his knowledge to his own practice) might have been technically correct, but the intent was disingenuous as hell. His intention was to convey that vaccine reactions were so rare that he did not know of any. As Jenny would say, "bullshit!!!"

Jeff E. said...

They (scientists) have shown time and time again that early child vaccines DO NOT cause autism. This was a rumor started many years ago. Science is Science. It is the truth. For some reason people refuse to believe what has shown to be the truth based on science and hold on to this fallacy that vaccines cause autism. It is sort of like people still believing that silicone injections are harmful. That too has been shown to be false yet some people still won't let it go away and refuse to believe what the scientists have proven to be wrong.
There is a case that I just saw on TV where 3(?) children were born from the SAME anonymous sperm donor and from 3(?) DIFFERENT mothers and ALL were diagnosed with autism. This would indicate very strongly that there may be a genetic component to this disease. Also, they no longer use thimerosal in early childhood vaccines and they haven't been using vaccines with thimerosal FOR YEARS. And yet there has been no decrease in the number of cases of autism seen since thimerosal has been removed from vaccines. What might this tell you?? I think once people like Jenny McCarthy get these notions in their heads that are later proven to be false, they are unable to get rid of them, inspite of what science and statistics may indicate and there is no persuading ANY of them to use their brains and THINK that they may possibly be wrong.

Wade Rankin said...

Jeff E,

To what science are you referring? Do you mean the Verstraeten study that proved a connection before the boys at Simpsonwood got to it, and even after was "neutral?" Or is it the Danish study that changed parameters from the "before" and "after" popultions studied, which made it appear that thimerosal actually prevents autism?

We won't find out anything of value from epidemiology until the CDC grows a set and does a comparison of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

And you're apparently not listening to the debate if you think thimerosal is the only issue. But even so, to imply that it has been completely removed from all vaccines is to ignore reality. There are several vaccines (including most flu shots) that still use it as a preservative. And many others still use it in the manufacturing process, leaving behind a "trace." Are there any safety studies on trace amounts?

Lanita Bonita said...

if you’re in the mood for a good laugh, I found a pretty funny impersonation of Larry King:

http://digitalfuntown.squarespace.com/dft-blog/2008/4/3/short-shorts-worst-month-ever.html

Camille said...

Wow. Time for a Tayloe Jr. v. Taylor libel lawsuit! That would be fun.

Apple_Mark said...

Just watched the debate and my jaw is still on the floor.
If only we had a Jenny in the UK!
Go Jenny..

Joseph said...

If he has never seen a serious vaccine injury, it is not because he has not come across one, it is because he has his head up his ass.

You're calling someone a liar there, obviously without having access to any facts. Isn't that libelous? Have any of his patients come forward to say "hey, my child did have vaccine injury and this doctor refused to listen to me!" ?? If not, why not?

Also, Ginger, your correction sucked. Grow up and admit a mistake.

Wade Rankin said...

Joseph,

Semantics is not your strong suit. having one's head up one's ass does not imply lying, which is a conscious act of deception. Rather, having one's head up one's ass implies that one is incapable of seeing something because one's eyes are covered in shit.

Queenbee said...

What a great post!!!

I could not have said it better myself.

Awesome investigative work too! As if the can of worms was not already opened you have multiplied last night's intensity threefold!

I love it!

Time to wake up America!

Ginger said...

Joseph,

You are right,m it did suck.

I wrote it from a train platform trying to make the train.. now I am in another lobby stealing wifi.

will correct soon.

Ginger said...

Joseph,

I have given a more thorough correction and downgraded Tayloe's status from intentional liar to nonsensical denial.

Going back to the video I posted last week quoting the CDC's private estimates that as many as 2% of the population are at risk for Poling Syndrome (I think that we should just give her mito + vaccines = autism phenomenon a name). If they are right, that would mean he had 2000 people at risk for what Hannah has.

And that is only one type of permanent vaccine injury.

Joseph, moms like me are constantly reporting this stuff to our docs, and they do NOTHING with the information. They blow it off.

Me: Chandler has been having fevers on and off for weeks.

Doc: "Some kids just have trouble controlling their body temperature."

Me: Chandler has had inconsolable crying for three months.

Doc: "It's just colic."

Me: Chandler has been constipated for two years.

Doc: "Some kids are just like that."

Me: He is autistic now, it started with his Hep B shot two years ago, read the safety data sheet here...

Doc: I don't think so.

Vaccines were never seriously considered, adverse reactions were never reported.

I am willing to risk making the assumption that somewhere in the history of his practice, a mother has said, something just like we all did to our docs.

I have only heard a tiny number of stories like Keo where doctors listened to their patients and parents and took symptoms seriously.

Most docs don't want to see vaccine injury, so they don't see vaccine injury.

And Tayloe looks to be their king.

erin lindsay neal said...

I can't find the entire video...only what's listed on the cnn site. I REALLY wanna see it all! Anyone know where it can be found?

Pamela M. said...

Our pediatrician in Newport Beach CA Dr. Pam Middleton doesn't do vaccination and leaves it completely up to the parents as to whether we want to do them and the schedule. (She works with another doctor who will do the vaccines for her patients) and my best friends pediatrician, Dr Bob Sears in Capistrano Beach is also very supportive with parents choices on vaccines. He wrote a good book on them "The Vaccine Book".

Just got this list off his website of vaccine friendly doctors.

California

Sears Pediatrics and Family Medicine
26933 "A" Camino De Estrella
Capistrano Beach, CA 92629
(949) 493-5437

Dr. Jody Lappin
901 Montana Ave.
Santa Monica, CA 90403
(310) 393-9784

Pamela Middleton, M.D.
Pediatric Wellness Center
1501 Westcliff Drive, Suite 260
Newport Beach, CA 92660
(949) 631-5437

Veronica Naudin, MD
2067 W. Vista Way, Suite 180
Vista, CA 92083
(760) 945-3434

Sabina Sonneman, M.D.
Redwood City, CA 94061
(415) 269-7115

Colorado

Pediatric Partners of the Southwest
Dr. Kelly Miller
Dr. Bob McGrath
Dr. Cecile Fraley
Dr. Brenda Huffman
Dr. Art Zemach
575 RiverGate Lane #109
Durango, CO 81301
(970) 375-0100

Connecticut

Dr. Kendra Becker
Family Nurse Practitioner and Naturopathic Doctor
Coastal Chiropractic and Family Wellness Centre
23 Clara Drive, Suite 105
Mystic, CT 06355
(860) 572-7711
www.fwcmystic.com

Florida

The Franz Center P.A.
3160 Southgate Commerce Blvd. #64
Orlando, FL 32806
(407) 857-8860
www.Franzcenter.com

Dr. H.E. Fang-Patrick
1951 sw 172nd Ave, ste410
Miramar, FL 33029
(954) 499-0572

Illinois

Karen M. Federici MD
Family First Physicians
599 Pearson Dr
Genoa, IL 60115
(815) 784-6300

Indiana
Dr. Terry J. Mandel
Family Practice
4007 N. High School Rd.
Indianapolis, Indiana 46254
(317) 299-2664

Massachusetts

Janet Levatin, MD
Natural Alternatives
1101 Beacon Street, 5E
Brookline, MA 02446
(617) 738-4600
www.JanetLevatin.com

Michigan

Amanda Kaufman, MD Department of Family Medicine
University of Michigan
Family Medicine at Domino's Farms
24 Frank Lloyd Wright Drive
P.O. Box 431, Lobby H
Ann Arbor, MI 48106
(734)647-5640

New York

Jerry Clements, MD
Village Family Practice
25 Fifth Av
New York, NY 10003
(212) 477-1750

Nina A. Tomei, MD
241 East Main Street
Huntington, NY 11743
(631) 367-5300

David Rosenberg, MD
VIPediatrics, PC
945 Broadway
Woodmere, NY 11598
(516) 569-2323

Ohio

Thomas Phelps, MD
8055 Mayfield Rd
Chesterland, Ohio 44026
(440) 729-4533

Oregon

Edwin Hofmann-Smith, ND
Natural Childbirth & Family Clinic
10360 NE Wasco
Portland, Oregon 97220
(503) 252-8125

Pennsylvania

Sandra J. Becker, M.D.
Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine
315 Continental Lane
Paoli. PA 19301
610-296-1238

Vermont

Jeremiah M. Eckhaus, M.D.
Montpelier Health Center
156 Main Street
Montpelier, VT 05602
(802) 223-4738

Virginia

Matt Irwin, M.D., M.S.W.
517 Wythe Street
Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 780-1261

Washington

Dr. Candace Aasan
Cascade Natural Medicine
12911 120th Ave NE, Suite E-50
Kirkland, WA 98034
(425) 820-7700

Niran Al-Agba, MD, FAAP
Silverdale Pediatrics, LLP
9615 Levin Road NW #101
Silverdale, WA 98383
(360) 692-8588

Dr. Kathleen Allen
Mother & Child Natural Medicine
16818 140th Ave NE
Woodinville, WA 98072
Phone: (425) 486-5345
Fax: (425) 486-8603
www.motherchildmedicine.com

Karen Rasmussen, ND
Federal Way Naturopathy
900 S. 336th Street
Federal Way, WA 98003
(253) 942-3301

Wisconsin

Claudia Koch, MD
BayView Family Health Center
3056 S Kinnickinnic Ave
Milwaukee, WI 53207
(414) 769-4900

DrSaveLives said...

Dr. Dave Tayloe interviewed on the Larry King show is actually the "Jr.". The Tayloe sued in the 1985 case (which began in 1980 or so) was Dr. Dave Tayloe Sr. These are two different people despite what other bloggers say. He was sued for giving a vaccine that was required by law to give which he did not manufacture. Maybe people should be able to sue the clerk at the DMV who gives out the car license plates - since that plate allowed you to go on the highway and get in a wreck...
In the late 1980's there was a scare about the DPT vaccine in England due to a newspaper article. People quit immunizing and there were epidemics of pertussis. Kids died. History has a way of repeating itself.

Ginger said...

DrSaveLives,

Please read the entire post before commenting.

The question of whether or not vaccines prevent disease is not what we are disputing.

The question is, are those vaccines safe for every child.

And we have the answer, and the answer is no.

So we are waiting to hear from officials how they are going to tell which children are which so we can protect the vulnerable.

Because no one has the right to cause damage to a child, even if their intentions are to protect society from serious disease.

DrSaveLives said...

You are right - I saw a copy of the post before the corrections were entered. You said
"The question of whether or not vaccines prevent disease is not what we are disputing. The question is, are those vaccines safe for every child."
But of course it is not currently possible to predict what child is at risk from the vaccines. It is only possible at the moment to predict which children at risk WITHOUT the vaccines - all are.
I am old enough to have taken care of fatal and near fatal cases of H. Flu, Pertussis, and Pneumococcus. I have never cared for polio or measles - the vaccines were too good by the time I came along. I have seen Mumps and suspect I am a victim of mumps induced sterility since my wife and I had to adopt children.

If a large number of children are prevented from being vaccinated, there will be deaths. Whose fault will that be - doctors since we were unable to convince the parents to vaccinate, or self-declared Jenny McCarthy experts who equate random observations with Science? Such a result has happened in England twice with deaths- Pertussis and Measles due to media induced scares.
It is one thing to blog about politics - quite another to get the public to drink the Jonestown punch because YOU think Diet Coke is bad for you.
I agree with you -
"Because no one has the right to cause damage to a child, even if their intentions are to protect society from serious disease."
But we disagree with the least risky path. Encouraging people NOT to vaccinate does put them at much greater risk than encouraging them to vaccinate. I think it is a shame to waste a limited number of research dollars on areas unlikely to advance knowledge of autism.
Remember when all the rage was that Thimerosal caused autism?? Thimerosal was reduced > 99% (although the amount of mercury in the pre-2000 vaccines was less than 6 months of breastfeeding) and the incidence of autism rises. If you apply the Jenny McCarthy Science of Association, you would have to conclude that Thimerosal was PROTECTIVE since the incidence of autism increased after Thimerosal was reduced! And that is nuts - as is her logic!

Wade Rankin said...

DocSaveLives,

I don't really see anyone here encouraging people to avoid vaccination altogether. Even Jenny Mac is not advocating that. But given the possibility -- the strong possibility -- that some children may have problems, is there anything wrong with taking a hard look at the timing of shots and the number of vaccines on the schedule? Is there anything wrong with asking for safety studies not just into individual vaccines, but also into combinations of vaccines (which is, of course, how they are administered in real life)? Is there anything wrong with conducting a study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated populations (a question that Dr. Tayloe, Jr. seemed to want to avoid)?

Ginger said...

DocsSaveLives, (and also cause iatrogenic illness)

"But of course it is not currently possible to predict what child is at risk from the vaccines."

Well… yes in many ways it is:

Is there a family history of Autism/ADHD/Asthma/Allergies/Autoimmune disorders?

Did mom take terbutaline in pregnancy?

Did you get the flu shot in pregnancy?

Did you get a Rhogam shot?

Did your baby have thrush?

Did your baby have colic?

Did the child had a previous vaccine reaction?

Did the child have mild auto immune symptoms such as eczema?

Does the baby have frequent diarrhea or constipation?

Does the child have frequent ear infections?

Has the child been on several rounds of antibiotics?

ALL of these are seen as warning signs of autism in our community.

When a new mom enters our club, all the old moms start asking these questions. “Did your child have…..” and after about the 5th 6th “yes” the new mom says, “I didn’t know these were warning signs, my doctor never told me, they always just acted like it was no big deal”. Then she spends the next several month reliving everything since she conceived and seeing that there were signs all along. We all have variations on the same story.

We have been telling the medical community for years, and very few doctors are listening.

The few who have started listening, are actually treating our autistic kids for their physical and medical problems and guess what happens...

They become less autistic!

Jenny McCarthy's son no longer has autism!

(How many kids with autism have you cured?)

"I am old enough to have taken care of fatal and near fatal cases of H. Flu, Pertussis, and Pneumococcus. I have never cared for polio or measles - the vaccines were too good by the time I came along. I have seen Mumps and suspect I am a victim of mumps induced sterility since my wife and I had to adopt children."

My father, his brother and their dad all had polio. My grandfather did not survive his bout. My father was only 7 at the time and it changed the course of his life.

No one want another polio epidemic.

But there is no reason to believe that rolling back the vaccine program to where it was 20 or 30 years ago will cause epidemics, because we didn't have them then.

Again… no one is disputing that communicable diseases suck. But the US has been free of polio since 1979 and it has been something like 15 years since it was eradicated from the entire western hemisphere.

Yet my baby, born prematurely, needed three dose of the polio vaccine before he was even 18 months old?

Those could not have been spread out over two or three years?

And the need to start when my baby is 8 weeks old?

And they need to be given at the same time as Rota and DTaP and Hib and PCV? And Hep B if it wasn’t given at birth? 7 or 8 antigens at once at eight weeks old?

Even though together they also contain Aluminum Potassium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Bovine Extract, Formaldehyde, Formalin, Gelatin, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Phosphate, Fetal Bovine Serum, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Phosphate, Monobasic Monohydrate, Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, Ammonium Sulfate, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sucrose, Aluminum Phosphate, Amino Acid, Soy Peptone, Yeast Extract, Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, Amino Acids, Dextrose, Mineral Salts, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate, Soy Peptone, Yeast Protein, Calf Serum Protein, Monkey Kidney Tissue, Neomycin, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Polymyxin B, Streptomycin, and our good friend Thimerosal? (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf)

In a 10 lb. baby? Seriously?

And why does my baby need a third dose of the polio vaccine when 99% of children gain immunity with the first two shots (“Seroconversion to all three types of polio virus was demonstrated in 99% of these infants after two doses of vaccine given at 2 and 4 months of age”. – IPV package insert)?

THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERKILL!

When I read this stuff, I don’t think, “Could this be making some of our kids sic?” I think, “wow… it is amazing that more of our kids aren’t more sick”.

"If a large number of children are prevented from being vaccinated, there will be deaths.
Whose fault will that be - doctors since we were unable to convince the parents to vaccinate, or self-declared Jenny McCarthy experts who equate random observations with Science?"

It will be the fault of the health authorities like Julie Gerberding for telling very obvious and disprovable lies to parents everywhere that caused them to stop believing their government and their doctors and give up vaccinating all together.

It will be the fault of pediatricians who locked their brain away in a drawer and blindly parroted the ‘no link’ stupidity.

It will be the fault of every medical professional and health reporter who thinks that parents are so freaking stupid that they will watch Hannah Poling get paid a million dollars from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund for her vaccine induced autism, and then swallow a bunch of bull shit about how there is no link!

It will be the fault of people like you who continue to proffer the fear mongering idea that if people like me demand transparency as to the real risk of vaccine injury and rational reexamination of the vaccine program and its unintended side effects, that we are putting people in danger. And frankly... what the hell with the false dichotomy that the choices are either the current vaccine program or no vaccine program at all?

"Such a result has happened in England twice with deaths- Pertussis and Measles due to media induced scares."

Yes… let’s stop and take a lesson from the British. Andrew Wakefield came out and said MMR linked to Autistic GI damage. Does not recommend the recall of the MMR but merely administering the vaccines separately and spreading them out.

Mind you he is not talking about removing anything, just moving things around.

But the UK can’t have people questioning vaccination.

So BRILLIANT officials decide to go the ‘my way or the high way route’ and remove parents options to get separate Measles, Mumps and Rubella shots and ONLY offer MMR. So you get what you get EVERY time an oppressive authority figure makes stupid decisions to try to control people in a way they really have no right to.

Rebellion.

Parents said screw the shot all together and viola… here come the measles.

Yet CDC learned nothing.

The vaccination slide is beginning and they don’t have long to stop this. With every bullshit press release like today, another few thousand mom’s get wise to the fact that they have no intention of being on the level with the American people, and say good bye to the recommended vaccine schedule… and some to vaccines all together.

It is a basic quality of human nature that when you treat someone with disregard, they eventually stop listening to you and leave.

But when you treat their kids with so much disregard that they contract life long brain injury, they come after you. (Enter Jenny and me and several thousand other pissed off parents).

"It is one thing to blog about politics - quite another to get the public to drink the Jonestown punch because YOU think Diet Coke is bad for you."

This is not about what I think.

This is about what is actually and provably true. I can see by your comments you have not read this blog. I would encourage you to go to the ‘highlights’ section and read. Start with “No evidence of any link”. Then read “here’s why the disdain”. Then read everything that I have written for the last two weeks.

Then watch Julie Gerberding, the head of the CDC, admit on CNN that vaccines do exactly what mom’s like me have been claiming for twenty years. Trigger autism in a subset of the population.

"I agree with you -
"Because no one has the right to cause damage to a child, even if their intentions are to protect society from serious disease." But we disagree with the least risky path."

And I am guessing that is because you have not investigated the risks like I have. Again… if you really want to get into the vaccine/autism debate, dive in. Go through all my posts and tell me where I am wrong. Answer the questions that we have been trying to get CDC et. Al. to answer for years.

If I am just some crazy woman, spewing stupid opinions, it should be pretty easy to win the arguement, so what do you have to loose, right?

"Encouraging people NOT to vaccinate does put them at much greater risk than encouraging them to vaccinate."

Please point out on the site where I have encouraged people not to vaccinate.

"I think it is a shame to waste a limited number of research dollars on areas unlikely to advance knowledge of autism."

This statement makes me crazy.

You have no idea what you are talking about. MILLIONS has been wasted on genetics that has not resulted in one screening intervention or one treatment for autism. For decades.

Yet the government still has not done the vaccinated v. unvaccinated population that the FDA charged them with doing when it took thimerosal out of over the counter products in 1982! That is STEP ONE in investigating a link between vaccines and autism. And unless congress makes them do it, they won't.

"Remember when all the rage was that Thimerosal caused autism?? Thimerosal was reduced > 99% (although the amount of mercury in the pre-2000 vaccines was less than 6 months of breastfeeding) and the incidence of autism rises. If you apply the Jenny McCarthy Science of Association, you would have to conclude that Thimerosal was PROTECTIVE since the incidence of autism increased after Thimerosal was reduced! And that is nuts - as is her logic!"

Please. Just read the blog.

Ginger said...

... and here comes the measles.

Doc.. start being straight with parents or start getting used to this.

And to be quite frank, I would choose the measles over autism every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

DrSaveLives said...

"Please point out on the site where I have encouraged people not to vaccinate."

OK, here is where you state it:

"Yet the government still has not done the vaccinated v. unvaccinated population that the FDA charged them with doing when it took thimerosal out of over the counter products in 1982! That is STEP ONE in investigating a link between vaccines and autism. And unless congress makes them do it, they won't."

You can't do a study in medicine with humans where you advise no treatment when that is known to be significantly risky. You can compare groups A and B where both groups are treated with a nearly even chance of success. But you can't have a patient with leukemia, and say "I want to test this new chemo. We have chemo that is 85% effective in children, but we want you to help us test to see if the new treatment is better. So sign here and you will be randomized to NO treatment or the new treatment...."
Since we know vaccines have an extremely good track record in preventing disease, no human experimentation committee would allow a study to proceed where one arm of the study has non-vaccinated (at risk) children. At least not in this country.
That study will never happen, but not because of some vast conspiracy. I will not happen because it is not safe.

There are many shades of autism as you know. It is uncommon to have a severely handicapped autistic child - the ones who rock in a corner or slap themselves, etc. Many of those kids are institutionalized. The quoted 1 in 150 are very mild, and many of those do indeed get better. It depends on how far out under the bell curve of behavior you go before calling someone autistic.
What would help a lot is for someone to develop a scale of autism severity. So that way people can compare notes - like how often does a level 1 get better with or without intervention vs a level 4 with and without intervention. A study like that would allow meaningful comparisons of treatment options.

Ginger Taylor, M.S. said...

"Please point out on the site where I have encouraged people not to vaccinate."

OK, here is where you state it:

"Yet the government still has not done the vaccinated v. unvaccinated population that the FDA charged them with doing when it took thimerosal out of over the counter products in 1982! That is STEP ONE in investigating a link between vaccines and autism. And unless congress makes them do it, they won't."

That is silly.

Talking about the inadequacy of vaccine studies is not telling people not to vaccinate any more than talking about the air pollution in Los Angeles is telling the city's inhabitants not to breathe.

There is a middle ground between full vaccination and non vaccination, and of course there is cleaning up the vaccines and the air pollution.

"You can't do a study in medicine with humans where you advise no treatment when that is known to be significantly risky. "

I understand the ethics involved. But there are unvaccinated children out there. (And after the Poling decision there are going to a LOT more of them) Generation rescue found enough for a decent survey HHS could find a lot more if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

And then of course there is the Amish.

And there are other ways of doing this. Animal studies for example.

It is uncommon to have a severely handicapped autistic child - the ones who rock in a corner or slap themselves, etc. Many of those kids are institutionalized. The quoted 1 in 150 are very mild,"

Spoken like a man who does not have to live with autism in their home and had to clean poo of the walls every day.

"and many of those do indeed get better.

Not on their own!

Do you have any cases of spontaneous improvement? Why have you not published these accounts? Parents would like to know these things.

And can you show me where in the literature it says children with autism spontaneously 'get better'? It is called 'PERVASIVE developmental disorder' for a reason.

"So that way people can compare notes - like how often does a level 1 get better with or without intervention vs a level 4 with and without intervention. A study like that would allow meaningful comparisons of treatment options."

You just got finished going over the ethics problems of non vaccination. How unethical is non intervention in autism?!

It would be helpful, yes... so why isn't the AAP funding those studies? Why are we funding our own chelation studies, Hyperbaric studies and GI studies?

If you want AAP to do that, to tell you if the Gluten Free Casein Free diet works, and on whom, ask them to get the money to the right people.

DrSaveLives said...

People want the AAP to fund a study. They can facilitate a study, but they are NOT a governmental body which receives tax money nor do they sell chelation products or labs people don't need... They are funded by dues like the ones I pay. I am not interested in paying $2000 more in dues to do a study for one condition. That is what the NIH is for. The CDC generally does not fund studies, although it does surveillance work on conditions/diseases. Asking the AAP to fund a study demonstrates your lack of understanding how medical research is funded.
The kind of studies it would take to solve the questions "Do vaccines cause Autism" or to answer "Does intervention work" is a double blind case controlled study where patients are randomly assigned to different groups and the evaluators do not know which group a patient belongs to when they are "scored".
There are groups like the Amish that don't do vaccinations, but I doubt they would consent to the intrusive nature of a study on vaccines. And since they are a closed genetic pool, the results may or may not translate to the general population.
And there are many children with autism that are not treated. Many states do not spend the resources that they should on Medicaid and similar programs to help the indigent. So that could be done as well - if the NIH or other publicly funded group wants to take it on. I am not aware of an animal model for Autism - and do you want to risk the wrath of PITA?
Hyperbaric studies make no sense. Some papers talk of "increased oxidative stress" as causative, and HBT actually INCREASES oxidative stress by increasing the PaO2 in the body. Competing therapies...
I think it would be very helpful for the autism groups to start at least by developing some sort of scale to "rank" the degree of autism in an individual. It is a hugely varied condition - too wide for it to have a yes/no description. And since you and others in the field have intimate knowledge of the variations of Autism, why don't you propose a scale?

Ginger Taylor, M.S. said...

”People want the AAP to fund a study. They can facilitate a study, but they are NOT a governmental body which receives tax money nor do they sell chelation products or labs people don't need... They are funded by dues like the ones I pay. I am not interested in paying $2000 more in dues to do a study for one condition. That is what the NIH is for. The CDC generally does not fund studies, although it does surveillance work on conditions/diseases. Asking the AAP to fund a study demonstrates your lack of understanding how medical research is funded.”

Sorry… I will brush up on who funds what.

But don’t tell me that if AAP urgently wanted a study on vaccines and autism that they couldn’t get someone to get it done damn quick.

They don’t want it.

The kind of studies it would take to solve the questions "Do vaccines cause Autism" or to answer "Does intervention work" is a double blind case controlled study where patients are randomly assigned to different groups and the evaluators do not know which group a patient belongs to when they are "scored".

Well yes and no. Those would be great, but as we have discussed over and over, with holding treatment is not ethical.

If you find out a child with autism has mercury and lead poisoning, then not only are ‘chelation products’ not ‘unneeded’ but it is very, very wrong to with hold them.

For example… my son has lead and mercury. He is currently undergoing IV CaEDTA Chelation. As the metals come out, his language and eye contact increase.

Would you recommend that he be placed in a control group and the metals be left in his body?

Only an unethical doctor would.

So then why are case series not enough? They are in every other field. How many cases like my son’s (autistic kids, tested and found to be metal toxic, chelated and autistic symptoms improve) do you need to see before it is evidence that this is a viable course of treatment in autism? Cause it is way past the thousands at this point.

There are groups like the Amish that don't do vaccinations, but I doubt they would consent to the intrusive nature of a study on vaccines.

Well if we never ask them we will never know, will we? There are medical professionals that the Amish do already work with and trust. They could be the one’s to carry out the data collection.

And since they are a closed genetic pool, the results may or may not translate to the general population.

OR it could give us clues into the genetic factors in autism!

I am always stunned that this argument is proffered so often. If the Amish have no autism, then lets find out everything that is different about them (vaccination, diet, exercise, genetics, everything) and see where the lines of inquiry take us.

And again… you can tell who does not want the studies done, because immediately they come up with obstacles, don’t think them through and use them as an excuse to just give up. Just like you are doing now.

And there are many children with autism that are not treated. Many states do not spend the resources that they should on Medicaid and similar programs to help the indigent.

I am not willing to tell inner city families that there are interventions that can help their children, like the ones that are helping mine, and then say, “but we are going to use your child to test and see if this will work for other children, even though we already have 5000 case studies that say they work for many children, but we have to, once again, give your kid the shaft because arrogant doctors like DocsSaveLives are in so much denial that vaccine trigger autism, and that diet, chelation and HBOT help children recover from autism, that we have to sacrifice yet more children to prove something yet again that is already clear as day to anyone who is actually looking at this with any earnest inquiry. After all, what is a few more ‘indigent’ people with brain damage wandering the inner city?”

Can you see why we look at doctors like you and see that you consider our kids throw aways? Acceptable losses?

I am not aware of an animal model for Autism

Of course you aren’t. Because you are not reading any of the research on autism.

Please allow me to again refer you to it: No Evidence of Any Link

and do you want to risk the wrath of PITA?

Is this a serious question?

Hyperbaric studies make no sense. Some papers talk of "increased oxidative stress" as causative, and HBT actually INCREASES oxidative stress by increasing the PaO2 in the body. Competing therapies...

Which again shows me that you have not even read any of the HBOT studies!!! If they keep the pressure low, they are not seeing increased oxidative stress in autistic kids doing HBOT.

I think it would be very helpful for the autism groups to start at least by developing some sort of scale to "rank" the degree of autism in an individual. It is a hugely varied condition - too wide for it to have a yes/no description. And since you and others in the field have intimate knowledge of the variations of Autism, why don't you propose a scale?

Because I spend my days trying to get kids treatment NOW.

And because it would not be and up and down scale, it would be a vast 3-D map.

Autism is marked by differences in functioning levels in various areas. By the time you actually constructed something that measured functioning levels in ALL areas, you would just end up back at describing each child individually anyway.

And honestly… and this is where you really don’t get us as parents… our children are trapped in a house on fire, and we are trying to find a way in to extract them as quickly as possible, but you want to commission a working group to create a scale of fire damage.

If you catch a child right after vaccine injury occurs, you can minimize the damage dramatically. We are acting NOW!

But you want to take a few years, have some committee meetings, come up with some new scales, find poor kids whose parents are uninformed enough to not treat them, run tests for a few years, get a study published, take a vacation and let people discuss the study, attend lots of pharma sponsored lunches, then maybe do something.

Meanwhile the autism rate will have increased from 1 in 150 to 1 in 50. But what do you care. It doesn’t touch your life.

I can gauren-damn-tee ya that if your grandchild was diagnosed with autism tomorrow, and your daughter was calling your house everyday sobbing, your laze faire attitude toward autism would change right quick.

And again… to be frank… you won’t read autism research that is out there now. So why the hell should we take 5 more years to do studies to convince you of anything?

You have no intention of allowing yourself to be convinced.

DrSaveLives said...

You mentioned:
"I am not willing to tell inner city families that there are interventions that can help their children, like the ones that are helping mine, and then say, “but we are going to use your child to test and see if this will work for other children, even though we already have 5000 case studies that say they work for many children, but we have to, once again, give your kid the shaft because arrogant doctors like DocsSaveLives are in so much denial that vaccine trigger autism, and that diet, chelation and HBOT help children recover from autism, that we have to sacrifice yet more children to prove something yet again that is already clear as day to anyone who is actually looking at this with any earnest inquiry. After all, what is a few more ‘indigent’ people with brain damage wandering the inner city?” "
My point was that there are many autistic children that do not get treatment for various reasons - parents don't want to pay for it or don't think the child needs it, or is not covered under insurance or government programs. I did not say withhold care from someone who was going to receive care - but rather make use of the ones who were predictably not going to be treated.

When I said:
" am not aware of an animal model for Autism"
You answered back:
"Of course you aren’t. Because you are not reading any of the research on autism. Please allow me to again refer you to it: No Evidence of Any Link"

I went to the link and there were just animal models for toxicology - mercury poisoning generally. That is a model for poisoning, not a model for Autism. You confuse the two which are quite different issues in research.

Besides calling me arrogant (which I guess is what you call all people who identify themselves as doctors,) you said the hyperbaric treatment (HBOT) works because they "keep the pressures low!" Ask any friend who is a SCUBA diver what HYPERBARIC means - "hyper" means "high" or "increased" and "barric" means "pressure". If you go to the HBOT website,
http://www.hbotreatment.com/Autism.htm
You could learn:
"So the question is- how can hyperbaric help with Autism? Scientists have varying opinions on why the therapy is so successful as a treatment for the condition. Some theories suggest that the brain in some persons with Autism, as well as Cerebral Palsy and other neurological disorders, is lacking oxygen and in a dormant, or sleeping state due to lack of blood flow. Hyperbaric forces oxygen into tissues throughout the body including brain tissues and fluid, resulting in a re-awakening of dormant areas of the brain. Other theories state that excessive swelling in the brain results in a lack of oxygen causing cerebral impairment that can cause behavioral problems, confusion, etc. Oxygen is forced into these damaged areas, through the pressurization of hyperbaric, which alleviates brain swelling by constricting blood vessels. In addition, hyperbaric is thought to provide an optimal environment to assist in the regeneration of brain tissue."
Which makes no sense. They mention treating the kids with 1.3 ATA which is the abbreviation for "atmospheres" or 14.7 lbs/sq inch pressure or 760 torr at sea level. So they are giving the children 1.3 times the usual pressure which is not much - like breathing from a SCUBA tank at a depth of 10 ft. The web site does not mention whether or not the patients breathe air – 21% O2 or a higher percentage of oxygen. My guess is that they breathe air at 1.3 ATA – essentially a placebo effect – but very expensive placebo I bet. If you were to breathe 100% oxygen at room pressure, the amount of oxygen exposure would be similar to breathing 5 ATA and you don’t even need a hyperbaric chamber! Thus if the point of the chamber is to increase oxygen at 1.3ATA, you could do the same thing without the expense by breathing (21%) 1.3 X 21% = 27% oxygen at room pressure. This is a scam – a scam you apparently believe in.. My point was that they are INCREASING oxidative stress by INCREASING the amount of oxygen - not decreasing it.

I still think the Autism Community should come up with a measure for different classes of Autism. It is hard to study conditions where the differences between subjects are not defined. It would be similar to trying to do research on "Cancer" without acknowledging there are different forms of cancer. Therapy for Leukemia is not going to work for Breast cancer.

Try to ditch the name calling – it makes you look rabid.

Ginger Taylor, M.S. said...

I am rabid. And I have a right to be.

And no I don't call all doctors arrogant. Just the ones who act arrogant.

I will go get the citations for you. Why don't you take the time to answer everything I put to you on the other thread.

DrSaveLives said...

I think I did answer most of the questions you posed.

Pose them more concisely and I'll try to answer them.

I did not address the chelation you are doing for your son. The problem with chelation is that it can do damage itself and is (as you know) quite expensive. There should be kids who are getting better with chelation and patients getting better without it. Again without a specific way of classifying patients and their change over time, I think it would be hard to tell that chelation is worth the money or risks.

From my group practice I have seen many children whom I consider mild autism spectrum improve over 5 years - often with no specific therapy. Our group practice cares for 700 newborns a year, nearly all of whom stay in our practice. Based on the 1:150 rate of autism, we should be seeing 4 or 5 new autistic kids a year. We do not see that many. I am in a rural area, and there are not many services available, and most would require our referral. If this epidemic has been happening for a while, I am not sure where the patients are going. I think the vast majority would be classified as "mild" were there a classification system and these often get better by adolescence.

Remind me what I did not answer.

Ginger Taylor, M.S. said...

You have not responded at all to my lengthy comments here:

http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/04/american-academy-of-pediatrics-shows-up.html

The problem with chelation is that it can do damage itself

As ANY medical intervention can. And children should be monitored for that reason. But this is hardly a serious obstacle to beginning chelation.

and is (as you know) quite expensive.

... again... your protests make me kinda crazy. If it will actually work, get neurotoxic substances out of my son's brain and organs, and bring my child back to me... even partially the way back to me... please... take my car.

If some one knocked on my door and said "I will wave this magic wand and your son will be completely healed, but then you have to walk away from everything you own and start over again in a homeless shelter with just the four of you and the clothes on your back, do you think I would even look back as I walked down the street with my healthy son?

And of course this is why insurance should be covering it. If a child, autistic or not, has metal poisoning, then they should be chelated appropriately! Right? This is a question that i am asking you that i would like you to answer.

There should be kids who are getting better with chelation and patients getting better without it.

Another question you have not answered. Where in the literature do you see autistic kids getting better on their own? I know of no such case.

Again... these kids have impaired detoxification function and cannot clear these metals on their own.

And as far as 'getting better' with interventions, the improvements with these interventions are often seen immediately.

There are cases of parents reporting that children's speech dramatically improved with in 15 minutes of their first B12 injection.

When we started the GFCF diet, Chandler started making eye contact and answering to his name for the first time since his regression 8 months earlier, and he had the first normal bowel movements in two years (he was constipated for since his first Hep B shot) within 48 hours of taking Gluten and Casein out of his diet.

The first time we chelated my son (600mg of oral DMSA) just when we gave it to him for his challenged urine test, he called me "mommy" four times in a row about four hours after taking the meds. He had not called me "mommy" in 10 months since he regressed.

Surprise, surprise, when we got the results back he had mercury and lead.

When we started him on amino acids and anti oxidants, he jumped from two word sentences to four word sentences in two weeks.

When we stepped up to IV CaEDTA chelation last summer, our neighbors were out of town. When they returned, not knowing what we had been doing with Chandler, they were outside with all our kids (they have son's our boys age) and after about 20 minutes started asking, "What is up with Chandler? Look at him! He is playing with Mitch!" Then we told them. Their comment was, "It is like you adopted a new kid".

BTW he is a Navy flight surgeon who rotates overseeing the medical teams that cover space shuttle launches (and a far cry more humble about the human body than Dr. Tayloe and you appear to be), she is an anatomy and physiology professor. It was at that point he started getting more seriously interested in implementing what we have done with Chandler into his own practice when he get out of the Navy.)

The SCD diet brought on dramatic improvements for our son in about two weeks.

I could go on and on. These interventions can offer slow progress over time, but almost every parent reports that one or more of the interventions that they have tired make a dramatic difference that day or in only a few days.

Again without a specific way of classifying patients and their change over time, I think it would be hard to tell that chelation is worth the money or risks.

Hey... if you want to try to come up with a scale, then by all means, do. But studies have already shown that parent reports on their autistic kids functioning are accurate. So why wait?

And again... this is not just about functioning. If an autistic child has metal, chelate them. If they have GI damage, treat it. If they have fungus, treat it. If they have viral infections, get rid of them. Doctors need to medically investigate what is going on in the body of the autistic child in front of them. What most docs do is go, 'they are autistic' and don't even bother to check and see if they are healthy or not.

They are treated like throw aways.

Call your autistic patients into your office this week and start asking about their bowel movements. Do they push on their stomach or lean over chairs? That is not always 'autistic behavior' it is often a sign of serious GI pain. Do any of them have pot bellies, but their limbs are of a child with normal weight? That is indicative of GI inflammation. Treat it.

Ask the parents if they have tried any dietary interventions and if they saw a difference. (Often parents who are using DAN! methods don't even tell their regular pediatrician because they are dismissed and even yelled at, so they give up communicating with them. That is what I did with my ped at the beginning after the third time I went to him and he blew me off).

Do a porphyrin or DMSA challenge test and see if they have metal.

Look at their skin... do they have eczema, even a mild case? That is a sign that they have systemic inflammation and putting them on something as simple and completely unrisky as fish oil is the minimum you should do for them.

You are their doctor and it is your responsibility to treat them medically. But they can't tell you where it hurts, so you have to be an investigator.

Based on the 1:150 rate of autism, we should be seeing 4 or 5 new autistic kids a year. We do not see that many. I am in a rural area,

1 in 150 is not static in every state. NJ, the chemical soup state, I mean Garden State, has a rate of 1 in 94. Alabama has the lowest rate in the nation at 1 in 303.

Also keep in mind these stats are always about two years behind, so that was probably the autism rate in 2006.

If you are in a rural area, it may be that your kids don't have the same environmental toxin load that urban kids do.

Because the toxins in the vaccines are not the only ones that these kids are carrying. (Note the Texas study that can predict how many cases of autism will be diagnosed per 1000 lbs of mercury released into the air from coal burning plants. I think it was 61 or so, but look it up because I am tired and may be wrong there. One of the only autistic Amish that Dan Olmsted could find lived under the smoke plume of such a plant.)

One of the reasons we moved from LA to Maine was to lighten the load on Chandler.

Here is my big question to you:

If parents and their treating doctors are reporting that kids are getting better via chelation, diet, HBOT, antifungals and the like, why does that not excite you?

Why are you looking for reasons to poo poo these treatments?

Because doctors who want to make kids better, don't just throw up obstacles to treatment and say 'oh well... to hard... can't be done'.

They look for ways to remove those obstacles, so the kids can get better.

DrSaveLives said...

You forgot to address the hyperbaric treatments and your misunderstanding of the term.
I am still curious how increasing oxygen decreases oxidation. Sounds like "oxidative stress" may not be important in the condition and treatment.
From your post, it seems like every treatment you try leads to an immediate or near immediate improvement. Does your son regress afterwards? If everything works, then it is possible that notheing works and you are just seeing the natural evolution of the condition? But no one will ever know until studies are done where kids are divided into treatment and non-treatment arms. Medicine has no trouble designing studies of a non-proven treatment going against placebo. It sounds like you want studies as long as the researchers don't compare the treatment to placebo!
I certainly have seen mild autistic kids get better. The reason you don't hear about them is there is no one selling anything. That is why some sort of scale would be nice. And it sould be a multidimensional scale - IQ, Social, Fine motor, etc
However, I have not seen the severely mentally handicapped children improve with or without therapy. And I thought DMSA could not penetrate the blood-brain barrier. If that is true, how do you explain the dramatic turn around?
It is hard for docs to get excited over new therapies with no (minimal) science behind it.

Ginger Taylor, M.S. said...

You forgot to address the hyperbaric treatments

Didn’t forget, just had not gotten to it yet : http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2431/7/36/abstract

“…HBOT at a maximum pressure of 1.5 atm with up to 100% oxygen was safe and well tolerated. HBOT did not appreciably worsen oxidative stress…”


and your misunderstanding of the term
I am still curious how increasing oxygen decreases oxidation. Sounds like "oxidative stress" may not be important in the condition and treatment. .


Then call the authors of the study. I am sure they can offer you much more insight into this as HBOT is not something we have tried yet so my intense investigation of it has not begun.

From your post, it seems like every treatment you try leads to an immediate or near immediate improvement.

No… I gave you the list of things that did work immediately for us. Demonstrating that there have been several interventions that have been much more than ‘just getting better’ on his own.

Does your son regress afterwards?

Not really.

He has only had one regression following a treatment, and one regression when he went off the GFCF diet for a month.

The treatment regression was Diflucan last fall. We had tried Nystatin back in the day, and didn’t see much of a change, so antifungals went to the bottom or our treatment list. He had several yeast die offs after starting the SCD diet last spring, so I assumed that it was no longer a problem.

Upon the encouragement of our DAN! doc last fall, we decided to try a 20 day course of it. While he was on it, I saw a bit of an improvement, but not enough to say for sure that it was the Diflucan. When he finished with in about 36 hours he started having a huge yeast flare up. I put him in the bath and anywhere his skin touched the water it turned bright red and his face turned bright red (usually creamy skin) and was so bad that he actually had scabs on his face for a few days.

This was a Saturday, so it was not until Monday until we could get a refill on the Diflucan. Monday he was such a mess that he could not participate in his typical classroom and spent the week in the class with the much more severely autistic children and was introduced back into his class slowly the week after that.

We did another 20 day course (we had obviously stopped to soon on the first) and it stamped out the last of the yeast for him and when we quit that time he was just fine and we ended up with a small net gain in his behavior/cognition.

So I know that he had more of an issue with yeast than I thought he did, and we may try to address that again in the future, but for now we are going to leave that alone and work on finishing his chelation.

The other regression was almost year into his treatment. He had been GFCF and one day he got a hold of some bread and didn’t freak out for the first time. So we thought perhaps his gut had healed enough that we could add bread back into his diet. He was fine for a week, week two not so great and week three he attacked another child pretty viciously (he has never done that before or since). So the test/retest on the diet has confirmed that it works for him and he is a dramatically different kid on and off it.

Both were resolved by putting him back on the intervention that was removed.

If everything works, then it is possible that nothing works and you are just seeing the natural evolution of the condition?

Right, you mean because I am desperate parent and I just see what I want to see? And what I want to see is the most expensive, pain in the butt interventions ‘work’ and the cheap, easy, and covered by insurance ones fail?

Again… you have so little faith in parents. You treat me like I am a moron. I have a masters degree in mental health from Johns Hopkins and worked in their psychiatry department. Can you at least assume from that accomplishment that, even at minimum, I am bright and aware enough to report with some modicum of accuracy on what is making my child better and what makes him worse?

You need to keep in mind that the MD’s that are leading this field are mostly parents of autistic kids themselves. If docs save lives and are the good guys, and parents are desperate and just imagining the regressions and gains in their children bad guys, then which category do they fall into?

Not every intervention has worked for him. B-12 shots seemed to give him a little boost, but it was not dramatic and when we took a break we saw no regression. He has been off it for a year (and frankly I suspect that his gut has healed enough that he is able now to absorb B12 like typical kids do) and we will try it again, now that we have a new insurance policy that will cover it, but for the purposes of test/retest.

But we have also done a lot of research into the things we try so that we don’t waste time/money. His viral titers were low, he never gets sick, so we have skipped anti viral therapy. From his testing, toxins seem to be the biggest problem, so that is what we attacked.

We also saw no appreciable difference from removing some of the things from his diet that he tested for and found to have sensitivity to. For example, he tested very sensitive to bananas, but when we removed them, no difference. When we added them back in, no change. So our boy eats bananas.

I would have to go back and look to see what else didn’t work for him, because usually I just move on and forget about them when they don’t work.

But no one will ever know until studies are done where kids are divided into treatment and non-treatment arms. Medicine has no trouble designing studies of a non-proven treatment going against placebo. It sounds like you want studies as long as the researchers don't compare the treatment to placebo!

I have no problem with placebo studies, and would happily welcome them, as long as they are done ethically.

We were discussing chelation studies (another question you still have not answered) where kids have measurable metal toxicity. To give these kids with lead and mercury in them, which we know causes brain damage, a placebo is unethical. Right? Please answer. Seriously… answer the question.

HBOT does not have the same ethical weight as it is still in the testing phase, so placebo may not be a problem there (as long as the child was getting other interventions that were needed).

I certainly have seen mild autistic kids get better.

Then you need to do a thorough investigation and write up on this. Because it is not in the literature and if it happens, it needs to be in the literature.

UPI ran a piece I wrote several years ago about the first child who was diagnosed with autism. Donald T. He spontaneously ‘got better’ and Leo Kanner attributed it to time spent in the country with a nice family. He never recorded that Donald had a bought of very serious juvenile arthritis and was successfully treated with gold salts, which pull mercury, and that his autism got better at the same time.

But because Kanner did not do his due diligence, this was not reported until Dan Olmsted interviewed Donald’s brother in 2005.

Please read this piece in its entirety. Because if you are seeing kids spontaneously get better, and are not checking out everything going on in their lives that may be making them better, you may be making the same horrible mistake that Leo Kanner made.

If you have kids that are seemingly getting better, look into their whole lives and make sure that there was not some happy accident that

The reason you don't hear about them is there is no one selling anything.

Presumably medical journals don’t care about this, so if you see it happening, write it up.

That is why some sort of scale would be nice. And it should be a multidimensional scale - IQ, Social, Fine motor, etc

Then make one, because it is clear that you are not going to do anything else to help our kids, so might as well put yourself to some good use in this debate.

However, I have not seen the severely mentally handicapped children improve with or without therapy. And I thought DMSA could not penetrate the blood-brain barrier. If that is true, how do you explain the dramatic turn around?

That is a damn good question! I don’t explain it. I just report it. As a matter of fact I wrote a long treatise following this called “Things that call for a CDC study” four years ago asking the government to explain to me why the hell this worked so quickly for my son and for more info on predicting what kids will respond to what chelators. Well four years later and still no gov’t funded autism chelation studies.

I can report thought that his CaEDTA response has been much better than his DMSA response. CaEDTA seems to becoming the preferred route now as its safety track record is stronger.

It is hard for docs to get excited over new therapies with no (minimal) science behind it.

Dude… case series are science. Parent reports are science.

I will get back to you on the animal models. Then I need to wrap this conversation up. You are not answering the questions I am posing to you. I was going to go back and make a list for you, but my husband is annoyed with me for spending this much time talking with you when you clearly don’t have any actual interest in investigating this for your patients.

If you do change your mind (or perhaps WHEN you do change your mind that vaccines are implicated, because the authorities become forced to admit it even more openly that Julie Gerberding already admitted it on CNN) then I will be happy to continue this when it is a conversation in good faith under your real name. For now, you have this entire blog and all that I have written to you on both posts to investigate.

Also, The Autism One conference is in Chicago next month, and ALL the docs that are on the leading edge of this and have written most of the research will be there. If you really want to explore this, please attend. When the AAP attended the DAN conference last month (Autism One usually has even more info than DAN) they were convinced that ‘the science was there’. Consider it.

And you can always call the Autism Research Institute and direct your questions to them. That is what they are there for.

brittany said...

GINGER, I THINK IT IS GREAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. I AM A NEW MOTHER OF A SIX MONTH OLD AND WHILE I HAVE NOTICED NO SIGNS OF AUTISM I AM STILL CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT FFECTS THE VACCINATIONS WILL HAVE ON MY SON. WHILE I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE BLOG FROM TOP TO BOTTOM I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT MY RIGHTS ARE AS A MOM. WHAT QUESTIONS SHOULD I BE ASKING THE PED. I DONT KNOW IF ANYONE ELSE FEELS HELPLESS WHEN THEY GO TO THE PED OFFICE BUT WITH ME THEY HAND ME A BOOK ABOUT THE VAC AND THATS ABOUT IT. ANY INFO OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE HELPFUL AND GREATLY APP. THANKS SO MUCH

DrSaveLives said...

For starters, you could just find a Pediatrician that you trust and ask his or her opinion. And if you are afraid that their education would prevent them from agreeing with you, I am sure you could find an Alternative Health Provider or someone similar who has never had to take care of a child dying from a vaccine preventable disease to agree with you. Those experiences in the older pediatricians (new ones like Sears The Younger have never taken care of those illnesses since the vaccines have been working) really warp their advice - I bet most would ask you to seek care elsewhere since they have already done the bedside death watch and don't want to do it again. The highest risk of disease is in the under 1 or under 2 years of age. If you don't believe me, stroll through an old cemetary some day. One in my town started in the 1700's. Lots of young children who died. Don't try and avoid a tiny risk just to get whacked by a much larger one.

Greg said...

I find it odd that people who think their children have been damaged by a medical injection are not gun-shy about other treatments, but rather insistent on large and frequent doses of them with little worry of long-term side effects.

Ginger Taylor said...

I think you have made some unwarranted assumptions here Greg.

Quite the contrary. Once your child is damaged by vaccines, you start carefully examining EVERYTHING that goes into your child. Including food.

Our process has not been just to show up at another docs office and do whatever he says, we spend hours reading autism books, getting to understand all the biological mechanisms involved, reading studies, checking with other docs in news groups, etc.

We are also constantly even checking with other parents on what dosages, timings of administrations, cautions about side effects and other meds to avoid taking at the same time that their docs are recommending, and what experiences their kids are having on them.

Most medical groups, like the one my son goes to, have parent groups that meet once a month to discuss treatments AND a yahoo group lead by someone at the practice where everyone can have open discussions, share experiences and resources, ask questions, etc.

And here is a little trick I started doing after Chandler's vaccine injury. When I am going in to talk to a doc on any issue, I spend a few days researching it from every angle, and then I go in and the doc questions that I already know the answer to to test him to see if he knows what he is talking about (and also get an idea of how aggressive or how cautious he is). If so, I am much more likely to want to use him and rely on his judgment. If not, then I usually say, "I'll think about that" and look for someone else.

Because of this, autism treatment can be all consuming, especially at first. But you eventually become pretty savvy as to who should be treating your child and how.

And don't assume that because these discussions aren't happening on Larry King that they are not happening.

Ginger Taylor said...

And Greg... also keep in mind the treatments that are being used.

The vast majority are things that have VERY small risk of side effects compared to the pharmaceuticals that most docs use.

We start with diet, organic, GMO free and as CLEAN as we can make it. We do testing to find vitamin deficiencies and supplement to correct that. And we even treat vitamins like pharmaceuticals in terms of dosing and testing to make sure that they are not getting too much.

Prescription drugs are the LAST thing we try with our kids, because most have not been properly safety tested, much less on children like ours with impaired immune systems.

Of the dozens of medical interventions we have used on our son, only three have not been OTC. Nystatin and Dyflucan for fungal infections, and IV EDTA for cheating his lead and mercury poisoning.

And even then only after we first used OTC/ natural measures to combat the problems. MCT oil derived from coconut oil and some other things for the fungal infection, and glutathione and other amino acids for the metal toxicity.

But those two areas for him he needed much more agressive treatment. So I spent tons of time researching them both before starting him on them.

When he is on Dyflucan (when the Nystatin is not enough) he has regular testing, which includes his liver to be sure it is not being effected, we test his mineral levels to be sure that we are effectively replacing the essential minerals that the EDTA will pull right along with the lead and mercury.

My son has three board certified docs. And autism doc (Naturapath, N.D.), a chelation doc (Osteopath O.D.) and a mainstream pediatrician (M.D.). They work from three different disciplines, and all three have to be satisfied that he is on the right course.

And and I have friends that know so much more about their children's medical treatment that they make me look lazy and negligent.

So do you still think that we just

Ginger Taylor said...

...pop whatever we are told into our kids and think nothing of it?

Greg said...

(note-I typed much of this before, but I don't see it, so I must have exited without posting. If you see both, sorry.)

I'm not so much making assumptions as generalizations due to the wide variety of treatments discussed,

I'm an outsider to this. I'm not close to any family dealing with autism, nor anyone who tries to treat it. I just want to offer an outsider's observations.

I used to work in the vitamin industry. When I started I was shocked at what intensive chemical processing it took to refine vitamins from natural sources. I think few would on first glance see these processes and consider the results to be "natural", especially when chemicals such as sodium hydroxide, methanol, MTBE, and paraformaldehyde are part of the process. Additionally, plant material has strange unidentified noxious (natural) chemicals not noticeable in raw crops that get concentrated during fractionation and other concentrating steps.

Due to this, I don't put much stock in the difference between (processed) natural and synthetic, nor OTC versus prescribed.

My point wasn't so much that people aren't looking into side effects of chemical-based treatments; it's that those side effects may not be known. For example, if you assume autism can be caused by vaccines, it took a very long time before that link was identified. (I think it even took a long time to identify the link between asbestos and its associated lung cancer, even though there turned out to be a clear link.)

If I believed something simple like trace amounts of a heavy metal compound (or other vaccine bio-chemical pathway) can cause autism without the connection being made for many years, I'd be scared to use any pharmaceutical or supplement -- who knows what traces of chemicals will be linked to other hazards or what long-term direct side effects not yet identified could result?

This isn't criticism of doing treatments. I'm just trying to understand what seems to me to be an inconsistency.